Domestic Discipline

This image has an empty alt attribute; its file name is article-2346393-1a739b1f000005dc-217_634x172.jpg

What is Domestic Discipline? Is it a more politically correct term for “wife spanking”? Until recently, I didn’t know that this sort of lifestyle existed. I was shocked by the number of people who are practicing it, including Christians. One article described it as a movement in the Christian community. What is Domestic Discipline and why are so many couples engaging in it?

Domestic discipline is the practice between two consenting life partners in which the head of the household (HoH) takes the necessary measures to achieve a healthy relationship dynamic; the necessary measures to create a healthy home environment; and the necessary measures to protect all members of the family from dangerous or detrimental outcomes by punishing the contributing, and thus unwanted, behaviors for the greater good of the entire family. In addition to punishing the unwanted behaviors, the head of the household is responsible for reinforcing positive behaviors for the greater good of the entire family. The head of the household is ALWAYS to conduct themselves in a very safe, loving, healthy, controlled, and composed manner – Free Thought Blog.

Husband and wife Clint and Chelsea have defined Domestic Discipline as, “…an arrangement between two adults who share the belief that the husband is the head of the household and with that position comes the right to enforce his authority.” They see the husband exercising his authority when he disciplines his wife and this belief is shared by both. They have written Beginning Domestic Discipline, a 50 page packet and in it, they have stated that punishment isn’t exclusive to spanking. Other methods can be used such as lecturing, removing privileges, corner and bedroom time. These methods are what most parents use to discipline their children.

I read about a couple where the husband uses his hands for “warm-up” slaps. Then, he uses a combination of tools based on the specific infraction. The wooden spoon is the least severe; for the worst rule-breaking—like texting while driving. The wife says that it could killer her and (“It could kill me,” Chelsea admits) or moving money between accounts without his permission—she’ll be hit with something else: a hairbrush, a paddle, or a leather strap.

Then, depending on the infraction, he uses the tool that would best apply. Apparently, the wooden spoon is the lest severe of these tools. For worst infractions like texting while driving because as the wife admits that could kill her, or moving money between accounts without his permission she’s hit with a hairbrush, a paddle or a leather strap. She doesn’t see this as domestic abuse. “This is for Jesus,” she says.

Some believe that Christian Domestic Disipline (CDD) is used as a means to justify the fulfillment of a sexual fetish.  According to Paul Byerly, who with his wife, run The Marriage Bed, a site dedicated to sexuality and religion CDD is  a “distortion of what God intended” and believes that “women, particularly in the Christian church tend to be sexually repressed.” Domestic discipline, he explains, could be “a way around that”—a chance to explore sexual desires while still nominally acting in the name of Jesus.

Another woman in the same article, said, that abuse is all about intent. “He never punishes me when he’s angry,” she says of her partner. “He doesn’t yell. The worst thing I can do is disappoint him and I do that when I act on one of my character defects.” And what about his defects? “He’s not perfect but it’s not my role to point that out. He self corrects.” And what does he get out of their CDD lifestyle aside from her obedience? The satisfaction and enjoyment of seeing her, “the person he owns, his property, become the thing God wants her to be. It might sound weird, but that works for me.”

At what point does domestic discipline cross the line and become abuse? At what point does the husband go from exercising his power to abusing it?  At what point do women realize that submission to their husbands isn’t something they should be spanked into doing?  At what point are they honest with themselves and admit that this isn’t in harmony with God’s Word?

Very Well Mind gives the following comparison between abuse and domestic discipline: 

Signs of AbuseDomestic Discipline
May use physical violence as a control tactic

Isolates partner from family and friends

Displays a power imbalance in the relationship

Makes threats of physical violence to maintain control
Believes the abuse is justified or that the victim caused it

Engages in financial control

Denies abuse or violence happened and argues it was not as bad as victim claims
Uses spanking to maintain order and control

Sets rules about wife’s interactions with others

Provides all the power to the HoH

Threatens spanking if rules are not followed

Believes spanking is appropriate for mistakes or rule-breaking

Has control over all the finances

Denies that this lifestyle is abusive and argues that it is consensual and biblical

Even though there doesn’t seem to be much difference between abuse and domestic discipline, there are those who believe that women should be grateful when they are spanked. According to a blog supporting CDD, here are three reasons why a woman should be thankful:

  • Firstly, she should thank him simply because he has done something for her and it is appropriate that she show her gratitude. After all, she is the primary beneficiary of the spanking, meaning that she is the main person to benefit from the spanking. She will learn better behavior, she will become a better person as a result of it. So it makes sense that she should be grateful for it.
  • Secondly, she should thank him because she should practice politeness in her relationship with him. It may be that her disrespect for him is the original cause of her spanking, so it is all the more reason why she should behave politely to him afterwards.
  • Thirdly, she should thank him for her spanking because it is a demonstration that she has learned her lesson.

The blogger then goes explain why exactly the woman should be thankful to her husband, the head of the household (HOH), for spanking her:

  • He has helped her to overcome her negative behavior
  • He has taught her something she didn’t know before she was spanked.
  • He has given her the gift of learning, although the lesson she learned was painful. It’s better than leaning it outside the home. Getting spanked for careless driving or for being rude to her boss is better than vehicular homicide or a job loss.
  • She should thank her HOH for bringing her to tears if she has cried during or after the spanking. This is an achievement for him because through patience, commitment and determination, he succeeded in making her cry. When a woman cries when she is being spanked, it helps with the disciplinary process. Tears are an important part of her discipline. And part of being brought to tears is the emotional release it gives her. It’s a form of stress relief.
  • Spanking removes her guilt which could linger and remain indefinitely. For this reason, spanking is a gift.

Domestic Discipline is not seen as abuse but as an expression of the husband’s love for his wife. One CDD wife said, “When my husband whips me, I feel his love, his strength and his caring.” Another wife who is punished whenever she puts her health or safety at risk, said, “My husband says he loves me too much to lose me and [that] it is his job to protect me from things, even if he has to protect me from myself.” 

I read a comment about a pastor whose wife insulted another wife when they were guests in their home. First, she insulted the woman’s cooking and then her husband. Finally, the pastor had had enough. He asked to use the library. He and his wife went into the library and everyone heard her getting spanked, pleading for him to stop and promising to be a good girl. When it was over, the pastor returned alone and told the others that his wife wouldn’t be joining them for dinner. When the hostess, whom the pastor’s wife had insulted went to check on her, she found her standing in a corner, completely naked and with a behind which looked like it was in really bad shape. She cried when the hostess went in but didn’t move or say anything.

Is it discipline to have your wife standing there in the corner, naked? If you spank your child, do you have him or her stand naked in the corner after a spanking? In spite of what the pastor’s wife had done, shouldn’t he have still shown her some respect? His treatment of her was abusive and degrading. And what I found shocking was that the hostess didn’t think that the woman very grateful for the beating she got but concluded that it had apparently changed her because after that incident, she was a different person.

There are faith leaders who are against CDD. Here is what Faith Trust Institute had to say on their website:

As faith leaders concerned with issues of violence and abuse, we stand against belief systems that use religious language and misuse religious texts in order to justify harmful behavior. Christian Domestic Disciple (CDD) is an example of one of these belief systems and we believe that these kinds of behaviors have no place in Christian marriages, or in any intimate relationship.

We support healthy and equitable relationships that practice informed consent, demonstrate mutual respect, and allow each person to exercise and be supported in their autonomy. The dynamic created by the CDD “lifestyle” is one of power and control where the husband acts as “Head of Household” and exercises total control and authority over the wife’s daily activities and decisions, enforcing strict “rules” that, if broken, result in corporeal punishment. In order to maintain control, the husband claims the rights to take away certain “privileges” such as the ability to see friends, use the internet, or watch television. In comparing these behaviors to those often associated with domestic violence, it is difficult to distinguish one from the other.

Every individual deserves respect in their relationships and the ability to live without fear and coercion in their home, community, and place of worship. We urge faith leaders, advocates, and community leaders and members to stand against violence in all its forms, especially when it is masked by religious language or cultural norms.

On another blog, CDD is defined as being “founded on the same principles as other traditional Christian marriages. The man is the head of the household and the woman submits to him in every way. But what is the husband supposed to do when his wife challenges his authority? That’s where traditional marriages fail. Women are naturally inclined to be defiant; it was Eve’s unwillingness to obey God that got her and Adam exiled from Eden. That’s bad enough, but add in the fact that our feminist society encourages women to be rebellious, and you have a disaster in the making. How does the husband remind his wife who’s in charge? Christian Domestic Discipline provides the answer to quieting disobedient wives. CDD empowers the husband (also called the Head of Household or HoH) to enforce his authority over his wife in whatever way he sees fit.”

This image has an empty alt attribute; its file name is photo-1559268964-12686b7aa562.jpg

Like most supporters of CDD, this blogger used Ephesians 5:22-24 to support it. However what about verses 25-29 where husbands are called to love their wives as themselves? Paul doesn’t encourage them to spank their wives when they don’t submit. The submission of wives to their husbands is equated to their submission to Christ. And the husbands’ love for their wives is equated to Christ’s love for the church which is a self-sacrificing love.  Would Christ approve of DD? Absolutely not! Nor would Paul.

A clear understanding of Paul’s message would conclude that, “A husband is to follow this example, loving his wife, teaching and reasoning with his wife from the Scriptures, and nourishing and cherishing her as Christ does the Church, even to the point of giving himself up for her. Ephesians 5:28–29 goes on to say that husbands should love their wives as they do their own bodies. Unless a husband regularly inflicts corporal punishment on himself, there is no reason to use this passage to justify inflicting it upon his wife. If a wife is truly being rebellious against her husband, then biblical counseling is the next step, following the model of church discipline, as outlined in Matthew 18:15–20

Domestic discipline is at best a strange, unbiblical practice and, at worst, an excuse for abuse. If couples mutually agree to engage in this type of behavior, they are certainly entitled to do so. But to use the Bible to justify it and call it part of the Christian life is not only ridiculous and scripturally unsupportable; it is antithetical to all biblical principles of love and mutual submission out of reverence for Christ (Ephesians 5:21)” – Got Answers

In all of my research on the topic, I couldn’t find posts or articles of women who were opposed to DD, except one woman, named Michelle. On a popular CDD blog, she wrote that, “I wanted the spankings to stop and my husband told me it was either DD and marriage or divorce. I chose divorce. I couldn’t handle the pain of spankings anymore, emotionally or physically.” What happened with this being consensual? Michelle was given an ultimatum. Either she continued to receive the spankings or leave. She chose to leave.

Are there women practicing this lifestyle who secretly want the spankings to stop but are afraid to speak up? Are women choosing to stay and suffer in silence to avoid the stigma of a broken marriage? In the Bible marriage is defined as a man and wife becoming one flesh. After the Fall, man became the head of the woman but he is called to love her as himself and to treat her as he would himself. Marriage is a partnership. Authority is to be exercised in love not in tyranny.

I personally believe that while parents have the God given authority to discipline their children, it is God and God alone who should have and exercise the authority to discipline husbands and wives. We know that He would never do anything contrary to His Word and all that He does if out of love and for our good.

“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son. Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it” (Hebrews 12:5-11, NIV).

Sources: Domestic Discipline Online; Daily Mail; The Daily Beast; Aeon; The Daily Mail; Very Well Mind

122 thoughts on “Domestic Discipline

  1. Mick

    You’re missing the most important aspect of a domestic discipline relationship. It’s a consensual fetish. The responses you got back regarding your questions is playing into those fetishes. That is kind of the point of it. Trust me, if a legitimate man is in a dd relationship, he spent a lot of time looking for a consensual partner. It’s not easy to find but makes sense that it’s more prevalent in the religious world.

    Like

    1. Thanks for your comment, Mick. Based on my research it is consensual but that doesn’t mean that there might not be some women who may have initially consented to the fetish but regret or don’t want to be a part of it anymore. Yes, it’s prevalent among Christians but that doesn’t make it any more acceptable.

      Liked by 2 people

    2. Petrina

      Just because someone is misguided and foolish enough to submit to husband’s abuse does not mean it is right, and that he will not answer to God for it, and be appropriately dealt with by God. It is wrong, it is cowardly, and it is sexual perversion. These men are sexually perverse; strange, and probably cannot even enjoy sex without doing something strange like this.

      Liked by 3 people

  2. Lana Lipsett

    I think that a true Christian who follows Christ’s teachings would not practice DD. What about Do unto others….? I think DD is so close to spousal abuse that hardly any distinction can be made. It is merely BDSM in a Christian setting but without a safe word. Who made these men paragons of virtue, who spanks them when they screw up? Any woman who has been brought up to believe women are inferior and brought sin into the world would have a hard time saying NO to this practice. To the men I would say that Adam could have refused to eat the fruit, I am sure God would have provided him with another wife. The stories in Genesis came from a very patriarchal source and I do not believe they are to be taken literally.

    Liked by 3 people

    1. Thanks for your comment, Lana. I agree with you that Adam didn’t have to eat the fruit and God would have provided him with another wife. God’s words to him were, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife,” before He told Adam what the consequences of his disobedience were. I have read stories and DD is not different from spousal abuse, the only difference is that the women are going along with it. They believe that they deserve to be spanked when they displease their husbands. This is so contrary to the marriage God instituted and sanctioned. Marriage is a partnership with mutual love and respect. The stories in Genesis reflect the culture of that time and sadly, instead of learning from them, people use them to legitimize practices which are contrary to the teachings of Christ. As you rightly, said no Christian who follows the teachings of Christ would practice DD and BDSM. Marriage between a husband and wife are likened to the marriage of Christ and His church. The couples who practice DD and BDSM ought to remember that.

      Like

    2. rkip1

      When you say, “It is merely BDSM in a Christian setting” you probably nailed it. Opinions are opinions; however, you aren’t wrong in a lot of your comment, until you get to the end. Scripture is ordained by God. It is only from a “patriarchal source” if you consider God to be patriarchal. Further, we are not the ones to decide that the Bible is not to be taken literally. While sometimes uncomfortable (e.g., I have a hard time believing that we are all descended from Adam and Eve, but tough; I have to accept it) if you believe the scripture, then you accept every word of it. Thus, saying, “The stories in Genesis came from a very patriarchal source and I do not believe they are to be taken literally” really runs against being a Christian.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. I agree with you. If you believe that the Bible is the Word of God, you should accept that what it says is true. Jesus showed how important scripture is. God could create an entire world from just two people because He is God and nothing is impossible for Him. The stories in Genesis and elsewhere are to be accepted as God’s Truth. They are there to teach us. The stories are about real people who made mistakes but from whom we can learn.

        Like

  3. Pingback: What Happens in a Dominance-Submission Relationship? - alter.igo

  4. Petrina

    These men feel powerless and use their wives as a means to achieve this sense of false power. The Bible in no way, shape, or form indicates that a husband is to discipline/spank his wife.

    A lot of this has to do with these men’s feeling of inadequacy and the power they feel when treating their wife like a child.

    In addition, I agree, there is absolutely a sexual component to it. For some men, sex is a violent affair, and this is a slick way to use God’s name to commit evil.

    This is a way to weld ungodly, unauthorized “power” over their wife, while experiencing desired effects of sexual fantasy.

    They are weak males, and religious cowards who don’t know or fear God, but they will answer to him for FALSELY representing Him by not loving their wives as Christ loved the Church and GAVE HIMSELF UP FOR THE CHURCH.

    Liked by 2 people

  5. Submissive wife

    Domestic discipline benefits my marriage it saves me from divorce
    spanking is the best method to teach me submission
    But of course I know it’s different for every person

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Yes, it is different for every person. Not many people will agree that domestic discipline is a good thing. They may say that a wife shouldn’t have to be spanked to submit to her husband. Wives are encouraged to submit themselves to your own husbands, as to the Lord and husbands are told to love their wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it. The Lord disciplines (chastens) us and parents discipline their children. Husbands love (not discipline) their wives and wives submit to their husbands.

      Liked by 1 person

  6. I am relieved to see others calling CDD what it is: abuse.
    The way one blogger and his followers talk about women is shameful. One commenter bragged about beating his daughter on her wedding day so she would accept the same treatment from her husband. They treat their wives (and in some cases female children) like property.
    What is as equally concerning is the way some women think they deserve the abuse and have convinced themselves that their husbands beat them because they love them. I don’t understand it at all.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Thanks for your comment, Beverly. I totally agree with you. It’s sad when women begin to equate abuse with love. Love doesn’t hurt. The Bible teaches that love is kind, patient and isn’t selfish. It thinks about others, not itself and what it wants. It doesn’t make sense when a woman thinks that unless her husband beats her, he doesn’t love her. It makes no sense at all. I can’t believe a father would beat his daughter at any time, especially on her wedding day and say that she should accept the same thing from her husband. He should have been charged and arrested for assault. Discipline is for children not women. There is a vast difference between discipline and abuse. CDD is and should be treated as abuse.

      Liked by 1 person

    2. Lola

      Beverly, I spoke offline with the blog author about this first (then my laptop died and had to create a new email account). I know of the commentor you speak about. He also talks about still spanking his wife weekly after 50 years of marriage, and he or his son check’s his wife’s hair in her private areas every week to make sure she is properly shaved, she has an early bedtime, and it goes on and on. Another talked about having his wife stand on a pad during spanking and corner time because she is so bladder incontinent she leaks badly after a spanking. Another talks of spanking a pregnant wife. Another used a cane on his wife for forgetting to buy a smoke detector. I want to say, are you hearing yourselves? I don’t know about you, but we needed a new smoke detector, my husband went on amazon, ordered it in 2 seconds, and it was here the following day. Anyway, truly terrible stuff.

      Sadly, I learned about CDD from a woman who had the courage to leave her home (they are not divorced but separated). Her spankings on her bottom and upper thighs became much more painful later in life. She talked to her husband about it for a couple years and he thought she was just trying to get out of spankings. To make a long story short, she ended up with nerve damage to her legs (all due to a prior undiagnosed medical condition that the spankings made worse), walks with a cane, is on powerful pain meds and needs weekly physical therapy. Her husband is now so remorseful is trying to reconcile and says he will never touch her again and take care of her every need, but she just cannot do it, at least not yet. She is trying hard to pray and forgive him, bless her. Her only silver lining she told me is her son has stopped using DD in his marriage, due to how mortified he is about what has happened to his mom. While this might represent an extreme case, it is said in many of the CDD forums that “millions” practice this around the world, and true harm is rare. I am sorry to say, but it is impossible to know if millions practice this, if true harm is rare. We do not have that data.

      I do understand that many women ask for discipline in their marriage. While I do not understand this, if they are giving initial and ACTIVE, ONGOING consent, I should not judge how they live. This new friend said however, in Christian DD, once consent is given (either before marriage or during the marriage) it cannot be revoked. That is why her husband did not stop spanking her. She told me that in DD that does not involve religion, initial and ongoing consent is much more present. Couples review the lifestyle every so often to make sure it is still working for them, to make sure the woman still wants discipline in the marriage. In these cases consent can be revoked.

      Even if the bible does not explicitly prevent wife disciplining, there are millions of us in good marriages who know it can be done without it. We know our husbands love us and cherish us, and we love and cherish them. We give glory to God in all that we do together as a couple and as a family. We have raised children to become productive members of society.

      Thanks for reading this. I may have more to say about this in the future. Blessings to all.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Hi Lola,

        Thank you so much for your comment and for raising awareness about something that should not be a part of any marriage, Christian or non-Christian.

        I look forward to hearing more from you in the future.

        Blessings,
        Adele

        Like

  7. Pingback: What is Christian Domestic Discipline? - Christian BDSM

  8. aronhusband

    This is real silliness, and tries to make a doctrine out of personal opinion. The Bible nowhere prohibits spanking a wife, or anyone else. Spanking is loving, and is within the domain of biblical authority. It has been helpful in countless marriages for thousands of years. A husband does not need to tolerate bad behavior by his wife, but has a right to punish her.

    Like

    1. Nowhere in the Bible does it condone or approve of a husband spanking his wife. Would a man spank himself? The Bible says that a husband should love his wife as himself. So, if he loved her the way Christ loves the church, there would be no spanking. God is the One who has the right to chastise us when we do wrong. Spanking a child is mentioned in the Bible and it’s for that child’s good but nowhere is there any mention of a man spanking his wife. There is no biblical authority for domestic discipline. The husband does not have a right to spank his wife for any reason. She is an adult, not a child. Treat her as an adult.

      Like

      1. You really are proving my point here. And I suggest you read my fuller comment below. Nowhere does the Bible condone of giving your children a bedtime. Nowhere does it say that employers may keep their employees on camera. Nowhere does it say Christians can have blogs. The Bible doesn’t give every detail of our life, of course, so we make godly applications of its principles ourselves.

        The burden of proof is on false accusers such as yourself to show WHERE the Bible actually teaches that spanking your wife is wrong. It never does! That’s why neither you nor anyone else can provide the passages from Scripture. They don’t exist. Spanking a wife is within the bounds of biblical headship, which is simply authority, and along with it the right to discipline those under authority.

        You WILL find where the Bible explicitly teaches not to add to its Word. You WILL find where the Bible explicitly condemns making doctrines out of your own traditions. Yet that is what YOU and other Christians do, but accusing men who spank their wives of being unChristian. You take your opinions and make them into doctrines.

        No one has to be a child to be spanked. That’s silly. Corporal punishment has been used for thousands of years on both adults and children. It is very helpful in managing wives, and helps them greatly with their attitude and behavior. It brings marital peace. I’ve seen it work many times, as have many couples whom I’ve interacted with. Stop falsely accusing your Christian brother.

        No. If a husband loved his wife as Christ loved the Church, He would chastise her, just as Christi chastises His Bride. Did you not read the entire Bible? Both God in the OT and Christ in the NT chastise the one He loves. Therefore, spanking and love go together. Are all parents who spank their children unloving? Are employers who fire their employees unloving? Are governments who punish criminals unloving? That’s a very foolish argument. Love and chastisement go together.

        Corporal punishment is endorsed, and even mandated multiple times in Holy Scripture. You know that is true. That means it is a just and loving punishment. The fact it’s not mandated specifically for wives is irrelevant. No one claims it is mandated, but only that it falls under the domain of headship, which a man rightly has. He may use it as he sees fit.

        You cannot and will not provide a passage in Scripture that prohibits spanking a wife, because none exist So you ought to stop accusing others of not being Christian or loving. You are the one being unChristian.

        .

        Like

      2. Do you mind if I ask you a question? Do wives spank their husbands too? I don’t believe that a wife should spank her husband either. When I mentioned parents spanking their children, I didn’t say that they were being unloving. I said that they were doing it for the child’s good. Can’t a husband lovingly chastise his wife without spanking her? Spanking shouldn’t fall under the domain of headship. I don’t believe that a man should strike his wife even if it is done out of love. Perhaps, there is no passage in Scripture which prohibits wife spanking because it wasn’t practiced at the time. I don’t put my faith and trust in traditions or man-made doctrines but only in the unerring Word of God. I don’t have any right to judge you or anyone else who believes in CDD but, I personally don’t think that it should be a part of marriage.

        Like

      3. Hello, Thank you for your reply. I don’t see a reply button on your latest comment, so I’m replying at your previous one.

        Firstly, wives do not spank their husbands, because wives are not the authority. They are under their husband’s authority. He has the right to discipline her just as any other authority uses discipline.

        The many Christians who accept that parents may spank their children, and do not cease to be loving parents in doing so, need to also accept that a man who spanks his wife does not cease to be loving. That is my point. Moreover, it is also that spanking has never been limited to children historically, or in the Bible.

        A husband can choose to chastise his wife by another method if he wants, but he can also use spanking if he wants. Many find spanking to be much more useful than other methods, and that’s why they choose it, although they often use it alongside other forms of correction.

        You may not personally think that spanking falls under the man’s headship, but you don’t have a right to judge other Christians based on that personal opinion. Discipline clearly falls under the domain of headship — as we all should agree — and spanking is merely one form of discipline. Since you cannot show that spanking is in itself wrong, then it is a legitimate form of discipline under the domain of a husband’s authority.

        I am happy that you recognize you cannot judge another Christian based on your opinion about spanking. Since that is the case, you should cease saying we are not being very Christian, or very loving, or are abusers. These are false claims, and judge us wrongly. We are Christian and loving, and we do not practice abuse.

        Like

      4. Spanking is not wrong when applied to children but a wife being spanked and then having to stand in the corner, facing the wall, that just seems wrong. She is being treated like a child not as her husband’s help meet. Like it or not, many people see domestic discipline as a form of abuse.

        Like

      5. You are stating your opinion. There’s a difference between not liking the idea, and claiming that it is unloving, or abusive. It is purely arbitrary to say it’s alright to spank a child but not alright to spank an adult, especially since the Bible itself applies corporal punishment to adults, and many cultures in history have done the same.

        I am aware that many people claim wife spanking is abuse, but that is a wrong belief, and is purely arbitrary, considering the exact same people support spanking in other instances, and also support much harsher punishments than that. It is pure hypocrisy then to condemn wife spanking. It is a loving punishment, when done justly and with self control.

        Like

      6. The Bible supports the spanking of a child, that’s why I don’t have a problem with it. Since, it’s silent on wife spanking, I can’t support that. Do you think it’s loving for a man to have his wife stand in the corner with her nose touching the wall with her hands on her head while she’s in pain? She’s forbidden to rub her behind and if she does, she receives more spanking. How is that loving? From what I have read about Domestic Discipline, there is no partnership in the marriage there but the relationship is that of a master and a subordinate. It resembles a plantation type set up. That’s not God’s idea of a marriage.

        Like

      7. aronhusband

        Hello, If the Bible supports corporal punishment for children, servants, and civil offenders, you can be sure that spanking in and of itself is not an unloving act or a sinful one. If that’s the case, you ought to cease treating it as unloving if a husband spanks his wife. You may not personally support that, but the claim it’s unloving or abusive is wrong.

        The Bible does not specifically endorse giving your children a bedtime, or sending them to their room. By your logic then, you cannot support that behavior. You see, we can’t assume something is wrong because it is not specifically taught in Scripture. In the instance of spanking, it is clearly endorsed, and even mandated. It is wrong to just assume there’s something wrong with the practice, or disparage the character of husbands who spank.

        I see no reason to think that standing in the corner for punishment is unloving. Are teachers who have students stand in the corner unloving? It is a form of chastisement, and chastisement by its nature is not enjoyable to go through. Jesus chastises his Bride, and you can be sure it includes some pain and shame. Loving leaders punish wrongs.

        But let’s talk about far more harsh punishments that everyone endorses. Are governments that send out uniformed agents to put men in chains unloving? Are police who chase down and tackle an offender unloving? Are governments who arrest men, and send them to prison, breaking up their family, costing them their job, and exposing them to repeated violent assault unloving?

        It’s clear that giving a punishment, even a fairly harsh one, is not unloving. It is just, because the offender did evil, and deserves to be punished. The goal is to punish the evildoer, and protect others from their evil. That is a LOVING response to evil.

        If locking someone behind bars is not unloving, then a bare bottomed spanking, and corner time are not unloving either. It is loving husbands who spank their wives.

        You do get something right there in that you understand that for a husband to punish his wife presupposes a vertical pillar of authority. Of course it does. The Bible teaches that. The husband has the authority, and the wife is subordinate to his authority. That is why the husband has every right to discipline his wife.

        Marriages that use spanking involve love, they involve communication, they involve the shared joys of marriage. Just like any other marriage. It is a malicious and inaccurate claim to accuse them of being unloving or unChristian.

        The marriages that are truly unloving and unChristian are ones broken by the bloodshed of divorce, ended so one partner can depart and marry another, filled with the tumult of a wife who disrespects and argues with her husband, made up of fighting or coldness, lacking in physical intimacy, and lacking in children on purpose. These are some examples of marriages that go against the Bible.

        Christians need to face those sins and repent of them. In contrast, marriages in which husbands are the authority, and discipline their wives do not go against the Bible. You just do not personally like the idea, or else you’d be able to prove from the Bible that it’s wrong. Spanking is within the domain of a husbands’ authority over his wife.

        Like

  9. aronhusband

    This is typical of Christians who have little else to do, and want to make a doctrine out of their own opinion. They opine about how wrong spanking your wife is, and try to preach the doctrine of “spanking’s bad,” judging their Christian brothers by this doctrine, and suggesting they’re not very Christian.

    There are real problems in the world, and there are real problems among believers in marriage. There are real sins that go on that need to be addressed. Spanking is not one of them. It is ironic that while suggesting spanking is unChristian, those who condemn it are pretending that their personal opinions are doctrines, going well beyond what the Bible teaches, which is itself an unChristian thing to do. We don’t make doctrines out of our opinions.

    The first thing to notice with those who claim spanking is bad, and the Bible tells me so, is that they don’t actually rely on the Bible to teach that it’s bad. They rely on blowing hot air, and talking subjectively about the Bible, and some general ideas within the Bible, but they can’t actually show from the Bible itself that it’s wrong to spank your wife. It’s just a long blather of their own opinions, while loosely working with biblical nomenclature. If the Bible doesn’t say spanking is wrong, you should not claim that it does.

    The fact that men have authority in marriage is clear, not only from Ephesians 5, but from other New Testament passages which teach headship and submission. This is also clear in Genesis itself. There is no reason to think that authority in marriage is some special different form, in which discipline is not possible. Of course it is possible, and discipline is given by every other biblical authority, be it parents, masters, elders, government, or God. There is nothing in all the text of Scripture to suggest husbands uniquely, of all authorities ordained by God, can’t give discipline. The idea has to be made up.

    Husbands certainly have a right to discipline their wives, because they are the authority over them. The words used to describe a woman’s submission and obedience are the same words that are applied to submission and obedience to authority elsewhere, including submission to masters, parents, governments, God, and more powerful forces in general. The word “head” when used to describe the husband, is the same word used to describe Christ and God, who are also heads, and have authority. Those under them obey them. This is not ambiguous. The man is the authority, like any other.

    One could then jump to the argument that “spanking is bad.” But then you’d have to prove it. Nothing in the Bible says so, and in fact the Bible endorses corporal punishment multiple times. It even mandates corporal punishments in some instances. Therefore, spanking is not bad, you just don’t personally like it. A husband is justly using his authority when he spanks his wife for bad behavior. It’s a normal, loving use of authority, that helps the wife, and helps the home. To accuse the man of having some aberrant mental condition because he gives discipline, you’d also have to accuse parents, masters, governments, and God. So it’s foolish to do.

    One could always run to the argument that spanking is not “loving,” but this is patently false. Punishment in general, when just, is well within the purposes of love, and men in any authority position may give punishment while remaining a loving man. If spanking is not loving, then no authority is loving, because all authorities use discipline, often far harsher discipline than simple spanking. Moreover, God himself, and Christ, promise to punish those they love. Christ promises to chastise His people. The New Testament teaches the goodness of chastisement, which is only for a short time, but bears the fruit of righteousness. Therefore, it is simply dumb to call punishment, spanking or otherwise, unloving.

    While critics like to play up alleged problems with wife spanking, they simply ignore the fact that wife spanking takes care of many real problems. It puts a wife’s wicked attitudes, foul mouth, bad behavior, disrespect, and negligence well into the past, and it does a very good job of it. It heals a wife. Conflicts, when they exist, are brief. Marital peace is the norm. A wife who knows her husband is her head, and that she will be disciplined if she disobeys, has an easier time in being a godly submissive wife, and finds there is much more marital peace than the other way. It also tends to draw husband and wife closer together.

    The loose, foggy, impossible to define version of headship that most churches teach leaves marriages in shambles. It leaves women with the idea they can put down their men, that they don’t really have to obey, that they can refuse intimacy, and that any man who asserts his authority, and actually expects her to do her job, or behave better, is an evil abuser. It teaches such a watered down version of headship, it is nearly useless, and this trashes marriages. Women know they can do what they want, and men know they’re not allowed to do anything about it. It’s a joke.

    Christians should not be worrying about husbands who actually take real authority in the home. They should not be worrying about men who spank their wives, as long as it is done fairly and safely. These are well within the bounds of biblical authority. They should worry instead about the sins that the Bible actually teaches about, explicitly, such as the epidemic of divorce and remarriage, which the Bible calls adultery. In fact, don’t worry about it, grieve over it. THERE is an actual biblical sin for you. There is what the brethren need to rebuke, and repent of. Cease the violence and bloodshed of divorce. Cease committing adultery by taking new husbands and wives. Marriage is for life and only ends with death. Of course churches refuse to even hear this, much less preach it, but it is taught by Christ and the apostles and the Church must obey. Get married, stay married for life, and depart from relationships of adultery.

    We need more men disciplining their wives, as many already do, and not less. It blesses countless homes with peace.

    Like

    1. Loving husbands do not spank their wives. We don’t need more men abusing women and calling it disciplining their wives. If a husband loves his wife as he claims, why does he continue spanking her when she begs him to stop? Why tell her that she’s just trying to get out of it? If causing someone pain your idea of loving them and bringing peace into the home? Domestic Discipline is a spousal abuse, pure and simple. I hope and pray that one of these days, your eyes will be opened to that truth. Right now, you and all the other husbands who practice CDD and DD are deceiving yourselves. As long as this type of abuse takes place, Christians will continue to speak out against it.

      Like

      1. This is merely a repeat of much of what you said before, and it has been answered. Loving husbands DO spank their wives, as spanking is a form of discipline and is love in action. Just as loving parents chastise their children, and a loving God chastises His beloved people, a loving man chastises his beloved wife. If you think he does not, then you do not know what love it.

        A spanking is not abuse, but is discipline. A wife’s bad behavior is abuse. Her negligence is abuse. Her refusal of affection is abuse. Her disrespectful language is abuse. We could go on and on. Discipline is not abuse, but rather deals with serious wrongs, which are themselves very harmful. The spanked wife is not the victim, but is offender, who is being punished, and guided back onto the right path.

        As long as wives continue to behave badly, husbands will continue to justly chastise them. It is good for a marriage, and good for the home. You can cry all you want about it, but millions of people, both adult and child, are spanked every day, and very rarely does it do them anything but good.

        Your emotions are not truth. You have not showed either from Scripture or logic that spanking is essentially wrong. That means you should stop making the claim. You just don’t personally like it, but you make ignorant and unjust accusations about your fellow Christian. Your unjust accusations are sin. Spanking is not.

        Like

      2. I know what love because it is clearly defined in the Bible, in 1 Corinthians 13, to be exact and other parts of the Bible. I have used Scripture to show that your idea of marriage and love are not biblical. So, you can accuse me of making unjust accusations as much as you like but it will not change the fact that spanking your wife is not of God. Spanking your wife is not a loving act. It is spousal abuse, no matter how much you insist that it isn’t. And there are many God-fearing Christians who feel the same way as I do about domestic discipline.

        Liked by 1 person

      3. aronhusband

        You need to stop making things up. Number one, love as described in 1 Corinthians 13 is in harmony with loving discipline, because a loving husband, who does all of those things described in the passage, will still discipline when necessary. It helps his wife, it helps his marriage, and it helps the home which is a fountain of life.

        If that were not the case, then God would not be loving, and parents would not be loving, but BOTH of them discipline those under them. If we followed your logic we would disprove God’s love. Hmm.

        For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives.” Hebrews 12:6

        Moreover, it’s not the only thing the Bible teaches authoritatively about love. Love is also obedience:

        “If you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14:15

        If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. John 15:10

        By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 1 John 5:2

        You are grossly twisting Scripture then, and misrepresent what love is.

        You continue to make false accusation, and you need to cease. Discipline, as understood in Scripture, is not abuse, but is love in action, and is for the good of the person discipline. Cease from your arrogance and sin.

        Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

        Hebrews 12:9-11

        Like

      4. Spanking is not obeying Jesus’ commandment to love Him. The Bible teaches that we ought to love our neighbor as ourselves. Spanking a woman is not loving her as you would love yourself. Please stop abusing your role as head of your home and start treating your wife as you yourself would like to be treated. Please stop misrepresenting love and twisting the Word of God to excuse and condone what you are doing in the name of “domestic discipline.”

        Love as described in 1 Corinthians 13 is not in harmony with loving discipline. You accuse me of arrogance and sin because I’m speaking out against what you’re doing. Men aren’t entitled to spank their wives. The Scripture verses you have cited do not support your arguments.

        Hebrews 12:6 and Proverbs 3:12 speak of God’s chastisement of us. How does He chastise/chasten us? He uses trials and difficulties. Our chastisement is not undeserved and its purpose is not mainly for inflicting pain. The word “scourges” is used metaphorically of God as a Father chastising and training His children by afflictions. An example is Manasseh who was carried off in captivity to Babylon for all the wicked things he had done but when he cried out to God, God heard him and delivered him (2 Chronicles 33:1-13).

        Fathers are told that they should not provoke their children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord. They are to be governed in love and wisdom. In other words, fathers should not abuse their power and authority. Colossians 3:21 also warns fathers not to provoke their children to anger. They can do this by being too harsh, too demanding, too controlling.

        What about the husband who likes to discipline his wife? Does he provoke her by being too harsh, too demanding, too controlling? What about humiliating and demeaning her? What about when he has her stand naked in a corner, facing a wall, in pain until he decides that she has learned her lesson? Is that his idea of godly discipline?

        What about when a wife begs her husband to stop spanking her but he refuses and continues to inflict pain on her all in the name of loving discipline? Domestic discipline should never be compared to or likened to God’s discipline of His children. He disciplines us out of love. A man uses domestic discipline to control his wife. Love is not controlling. It is a fruit of the Spirit.

        Liked by 1 person

      5. aronhusband

        Yes, love includes obedience to God. So do not try to wrongly define it anymore.

        Spanking is well within the authority that Jesus and God give to the husband, and is biblically mandated in the Bible for some punishments. So yes, a man is being obedient to God to lead, and to discipline his wife. God gave him that authority in the first place. In contrast, a wife is being disobedient to God, and unloving, if she refuses her husband’s authority.

        Despite the various replies above, you have not cited a single Scripture that says that spanking is wrong or that wife spanking is wrong. You cannot. It’s clearly just your own opinions and your own wrong definition of love. Love includes discipline, and that is clear in the Bible, otherwise God himself would be unloving.

        Since it is only your opinion, you need to stop judging Christian brothers and sisters for having spanking in their marriage. Judging that way is sin. You have no basis to accuse them of wrong.

        To scourge means to punish. To scourge includes spanking, as well as other forms of serious punishment. Same thing with chastise.

        What that proves is that discipline is well within loving relationships, and this refutes your claims. Jesus scourges. God scourges. Not only that, but in context of comparing God’s punishment to a CHILD’S punishment, Hebrews 12 clearly suggests corporal punishment, because corporal punishment was a norm for punishing children, and is mandated in the Bible. It references something known to be painful.

        Nor can you redefine scourging as something gentle. When God chastises it is often through violent invaders, death, and famine. Read Lamentations one more time. Read Revelation one more time. What’s gentle about that? Would you accuse God of sin and pride? Yet this is what the Bible teaches. It gives many such examples both Old Testament and New of God’s fearful punishment. It is not a time out.

        You seem to be lingering in the already refuted idea that husbands need a precise command to spank their wives in order to do it. They do NOT. They simply need the authority, which they obviously have from God. Spanking then is well within their authority, and is both permitted and mandated as a punishment throughout the Bible by a loving God.

        The burden of proof is on you to show that spanking is wrong, or that wife spanking is wrong, but you have not a single Scripture to show that. Rather, you ignore Scripture which proves that punishment, including severe punishment, is a part of a loving relationship. Jesus promises the churches of Revelation they will suffer death for their sins if they continue, and that is hardly a mild, gentle reproof. So get over this idea that chastisement has to be gentle.

        If love did not include rules and punishment, you would logically mean that God, and all instituted authorities in the Bible are not loving. Then I guess you attack your own faith, and refute the truth of the Bible.

        A husband who has rules is not “controlling.” He is loving, and rules apply that love to the household. A husband who punishes his wife is neither out of control nor cruel. He is punishing an offender, and applying love to the household through it.

        Loving discipline shows the fruit of the Spirit, despite your gross misrepresentation of it. It is you who lack self-control, by letting your emotions move you to judge your brother, and by ignoring the Word of God itself. You then invent a non-biblical version of love. All of your claims are refuted by Scripture, which show that love is in harmony with discipline, and discipline is often painful.

        The punished offender is not supposed to like it, just as Hebrews 12 plainly states. Yet the punished offender is rewarded in the long run. To treat punishment like oppression is very immature, and a shallow attempt to play the victim. A badly behaved wife is rightly punished by her husband ,who does her good in doing so. She needs to look at her own wrong, and not blame the authority for correcting her.

        Like

      6. Your response is typical of those who try to defend something that is unbiblical. You have not cited any Scripture which supports wife spanking because none exists. Wife spanking is not mandated by God and claiming that is erroneous. It goes against what Jesus said about the husband and wife and what Paul and Peter said about the relationship between a husband and wife.

        Even after a husband was given authority over his wife, men were told to love their wives as themselves. Peter exhorted them, “Husbands, likewise, dwell with them with understanding, giving honor to the wife, as to the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life, that your prayers may not be hindered” (1 Peter 3:7). Do you try to show your wife understanding or is everything resolved with the cane or the belt or what ever you use to spank her?

        What happens to a badly behaved husband or when he commits an infraction? You’re probably going to say that nothing happens because he’s the head–the authority of the wife. Or are you going to say that there are no badly behaved husbands?

        You claim, “Loving discipline shows the fruit of the Spirit, despite your gross misrepresentation of it. It is you who lack self-control, by letting your emotions move you to judge your brother, and by ignoring the Word of God itself. You then invent a non-biblical version of love. All of your claims are refuted by Scripture, which show that love is in harmony with discipline, and discipline is often painful.” This just proves my point that you are misrepresenting the Word of God.

        “The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control…” – Galatians 5:22-23. Are you exercising any of these or is spanking your only way of dealing with your wife? The Holy Spirit convicts us when we do wrong. Do you really think He would condone wife spanking?

        You refer to the wife as an “offender”. Doesn’t Jesus teach us that we ought to pray for those who offend us? If we are told to love and pray for our enemies, what about your wife? Why don’t you pray for her instead of spanking her? Prayer is very effective.

        You insult me because you don’t want to accept the Truth. When you reject the Truth, you are rejecting God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. My emotions have nothing to do with this but God’s unerring Truth which is there to reprove and to correct us.

        Liked by 1 person

      7. aronhusband

        All you are doing is repeating precisely what you have said before. Your claims have been refuted. Your misrepresentation of biblical love has been refuted. You have zero passages from the Bible to teach that spanking is wrong, but you want to live by your feelings and personal desires, rather than by the Bible. You are sinful to accuse brothers of wrongdoing when you have no basis to make that claim.

        Wife spanking goes against NOTHING in Scripture. It is in harmony with biblical authority, which is given by God to the husband. A spanking is a biblically accepted and mandated punishment. Love includes discipline in the Bible, many times over, including very harsh discipline. The Christ of Scripture, is without a doubt, a Bride spanker. Yet He is perfect love. 

        If we use your standards, God is being sinful, governments who have laws are all sinful, employers are sinful, and parents who punish children are sinful. God is a God of pride and anger, and you can sit in judgment over Him. That would be the result of your flawed “analysis” of Scripture. You need to admit your mistake and your sin of judging your brother without any basis.

        Quoting Paul about dwelling in understanding, and honoring a wife as the weaker vessel offers no proof of your ridiculous claims. You have to insert your own beliefs in there because they’re not in the text. It is very possible to dwell in understanding, as it is possible to dwell in love, while also disciplining the wife. You are reading your own beliefs into the text. Loving and understanding husbands discipline their wives all the time, and they do so with respect for their weaknesses, both physical and mental. It is a caring act for their good.

        You can keep repeating the fruit of the Spirit all you want — it makes a nice memorable Christian song as well — but this passage of Galatians does not teach that discipline is wrong. It teaches Christians the character they should have, and all of that character agrees with a leader who practices loving discipline. If it did not, then every single Christian parent who punished their child would NOT be showing the fruit of the Spirit. Every single Christian employer who disciplined his workers would be lacking too. Every single government which penalized crime would be un-Christian. Nothing in Galatians says that spanking is wrong, and God himself mandates the practice. God does not lack the Holy Spirit.

        Notice, you still have ZERO passages from the Bible which teach that spanking is wrong.

        What’s actually wrong is the bad behavior of wives which leads them to be justly punished:

        Her badmouth is wrong. Her disrespect is wrong. Her disobedience is wrong. Her negligence is wrong. Her endangering her children is wrong. Her rejection of intimacy is wrong. Her drunkenness is wrong. Her dishonesty is wrong.

        THOSE things are actually prohibited in the Bible, and a husband does right to punish his wife for it. You can try all you like to turn the tables — like an immature adolescent — but the behavior that the Bible condemns is not spanking, but much of what a wife does that gets her spanked in the first place. Her wrong behavior is prohibited by Scripture.

        As I have said — go read Lamentations. Go read Revelation. Go read other passages from the prophets. Tell me God is lacking in the Spirit or lacking in love because He punishes evil, and at times does so harshly. Your arguments are empty, and come from your personal feelings. Good and loving husbands spank their wives.

        Like

      8. I have read Lamentations and Revelation. I know the Bible and I know it does not support you spanking your wife no matter how much you claim it does. Instead of worrying about me, pray and ask God to forgive you for what you’re doing to your wife. Claiming that my arguments are empty and attacking me personally isn’t going to change the fact that domestic discipline is not biblical. There are many good, loving husbands who do not spank their wives.

        What about the wrong behavior of a husband, wouldn’t it be prohibited in the Bible too? When Adam disobeyed God? Did God punish Eve only?

        You need to prayerfully read Colossians 3:19 which says, “Husbands, love your wives and do not be bitter toward them.”

        Regarding sexual intimacy between a husband and wife, the Bible addresses this in 1 Corinthians 7:3-5: Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. If a woman deprives her husband or rejects intimacy, this is something both of them have to deal with God’s help.

        You said, “Her badmouth is wrong. Her disrespect is wrong. Her disobedience is wrong. Her negligence is wrong. Her endangering her children is wrong. Her rejection of intimacy is wrong. Her drunkenness is wrong. Her dishonesty is wrong.” The same applies to the husband. Badmouth, disrespect, disobedience, negligence, endangering others, rejection, drunkenness and dishonesty is wrong regardless of gender. God’s rules apply to both men and women, not only to wives.

        Like

      9. If you have read Lamentations, the Torah, Revelation, the prophets, then you KNOW that the chastisement of God, His scourging, is not simply a mild affair. You know it amounts to serious punishment. That completely refutes your attempt to redefine scourging as a gentle thing. Obviously it is not. That means you need to accept that punishment is in full harmony with love.

        More from Revelation:
        “As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. (3:19)

        In the context of chapters 2 and 3 alone, Christ’s chastening includes being destroyed as a church, illness and death, having your name blotted out of the book of life. These are very serious chastisements, as are others listed in the same book.

        What that proves is that Christ’s is love, and Christ also scourges those He loves. It is not a gentle time out. It includes harsh punishment. Your claim then that love is in conflict with discipline is completely false. Clearly Christ punishes His beloved. So stop using that argument.

        You can repeat “love” all you want, but you do not have a biblical version of love. You have a false one. Biblical love is applied through the righteous use of authority, making rules that promote the good and punish evil, and punishing evil offenders, punishments generally being very unpleasant to experience. That is love applied. That is Bible.

        The fact that God did not only punish Eve, but also Adam, is irrelevant to whether husbands can discipline their wives, through spanking or otherwise. All authorities have a right to discipline those under them. Men are disciplined by their superiors as well, and also by God. Nothing there comes down in your favor.

        I am not attacking you personally to say your arguments are false. Nor to call them immature, because they are immature, seeking to avoid responsibility, and attack authorities who justly punish. They are clearly not biblical and you need to stop making them. You are reinventing the meaning of words, and ignoring God’s character, and God’s justice. This is just liberalism by another name. You need to repent, and respect your brothers who chastise their wives.

        Nothing comes down in your favor in 1 Corinthians 7 either. I regularly teach from that passage, and teach both men and women to share affection with each other freely. It is a duty. The fact that men have a responsibility to those under them does not mean they are not the heads, nor that they cannot punish their wives. It only means they have a responsibility. They have responsibilities towards their children too, but they also punish their children for doing wrong. Man and wife’s body belongs to each through being one flesh. This does not mean men may not spank their wives. It does not mean you may not lead her, set rules, or otherwise punish her. It says that nowhere. That is only your personal opinion which you constantly try to inject into Scripture where it does not exist.

        Of course God’s law applies to men as well as to women. That is irrelevant. Man is the authority, so man is the one to apply that in the home, and discipline those under him. You simply want to ignore the fact it is the punished wife who is breaking God’s law in the Bible, and NOT the husband who spanks her. Her behavior is wrong and causes harm. Punishment corrects it.

        I can point to passages which prohibit a wife’s wicked behavior. I can point you to passages that prohibit her lying, her disobedience, her lack of affection, her negligence, and more. You can point to NONE that prohibits a man to spank his wife, or to otherwise discipline her.

        You could make the same immature argument about parents. Parents cannot punish their children, because parents break the rules sometimes too. That is a nonsensical argument. Parents still have authority over their children, and the fact they might do wrong changes nothing. The government might break God’s law, but you and I still need to obey the law, and the authorities will arrest us if we do not.

        Still waiting for one single passage from the Bible that says spanking is bad. I have shown you that a wife’s bad behavior is prohibited in the Bible, but you can’t do the same for spanking. The man does rightly to chasten his wife when she does wrong. It helps her, the marriage, and the home. God has given him that authority.

        Like

      10. This will be my last response to your comments. Only God can get through to you and others who believe as you do. Everything I have said is in reference to God’s Word. Yes, the Bible talks of God chastising His people but no where does it mention anything about a husband spanking his wife. That is man made not biblical doctrine. You’re still waiting for one single passage from the Bible which says that spanking is bad and I’m still waiting for one single passage to say that it is mandatory or condoned by God. God has never and will never give a man the authority to spank his wife. Calling my arguments childish and immature wouldn’t change anything. And the same law you mentioned that we ought to obey is the same law which will have a problem with domestic discipline. To them it’s marital abuse. And you will never convince me that God would sanction a husband spanking his wife, especially when she’s pregnant.

        Liked by 1 person

      11. aronhusband

        It would be good if that’s your last comment, because we are just repeating ourselves. You are wrong about spanking, and you are not sincerely trying to seek truth in Scripture.T he Bible shows you are wrong.

        You don’t get to write your own Bible, made up of your opinions and your personal desires. The Bible itself is our source of truth, and it nowhere condemns spanking. Cease making your own words as if they are the words of God. That is a sin.

        The Bible DOES teach that a wife must obey her husband in all things. The Bible also teaches strongly against the wicked behavior that a wife does to end up getting spanked. So you have no basis there, but rather it refutes you. I don’t know how many times you want to say the same things, and close your eyes to reason, but in all those many words, you cannot cite a single Scripture that teaches your viewpoint. They simply do not exist.

        I do not need to show you any mandate that says a husband must spank his wife. That’s nonsense and we’ve been over that topic already. Do parents need to show a mandate in the Bible in order to have a bedtime for their children? Do they need a mandate for the Bible to use a time out? If they didn’t, then both of those practices would be unethical, because the Bible does not teach them. Parents would all have to cease doing them. Do governments today need a mandate for the Bible to utilize prison time as a punishment? The Bible never mandates prison time. Your logic would say that means sentencing people to prison is always unethical. That’s because your logic is nonsensical. No one needs a mandate from the Bible to do everything they do. They only need the basic authority to do it.

        When it comes to husbands, they have the basic authority to discipline their wives. That authority is given by God. The use of corporal punishment is accepted in the Bible and at times is mandated. That means that corporal punishment, used justly, is in harmony with love, with self-control, and with a gentle character. Otherwise, everyone would be sinning if they used discipline, or if they used force in general. It would all be sin.

        You only make that argument to avoid the fact that the burden of proof is on YOU, and nowhere in many comments have you come close to meeting a burden of proof. I have met the burden of proof showing the husband has the authority in the home, that spanking as a practice is acceptable, and that discipline of many forms is in harmony with love. You have not shown any meaningful evidence that spanking is wrong.

        You are grossly twisting Scripture because it does not agree with you. You misinterpret because your belief system does not exist in its pages. You’ve got to twist it to suit your desires. If you sincerely turn to God, God will give you a right understanding of His Word, and He will teach you to treat your brothers and sisters in Christ more fairly. That will include no longer accusing them of all kinds of wrong, just because they use corporal punishment. They are your brothers in Christ.

        Like

      12. It would be best if this were your last comment as well because we’re getting nowhere. Thanks for your concern but I have a right understanding of God’s Word because My Teacher is His Holy Spirit–the Spirit of Truth.

        Like

      13. Joanna

        The man above seems quite confused on the points he is trying to make; on the one hand he points to most marriages being in shambles, even within the church, as husbands won’t hurt their wives as he wishes they would, but on the other hand he states confidently that ‘many men discipline their wives’.

        He is an abuser, clear and simple. He speaks of his responsibility to honour scripture (even though physical violence toward a wife is not endorsed), his commitment to the Christian faith, yet praises men from other religions (where domestic abuse rates are higher). Christianity is not what drives this man; the subjugation of women is.

        More and more women are leaving the church. This is notable as women on the whole have always been more observing/religious. The (slight) increase in fertility rate among Evangelicals is not enough to outdo those who leave. With how women are treated within the church, with what some expect women to endure, who can blame them?

        They retain their faith often, but organised religion hides and justifies all sorts of crimes and sins to which women are especially vulnerable.

        Liked by 1 person

      14. I agree with you, Joanna. Erroneous beliefs are always confusing. How could he claim that he is honoring scripture and yet, he is not treating and loving the wife as he would treat and love himself? Spanking wives is not endorsed by God. Being the head of the wife doesn’t entitle him to abuse her under the guise of domestic discipline. Wives are to be treated with the same love Christ shows to the church of which He is the Head. Love doesn’t hurt, humiliate or harm. It would be good for churches to speak out against domestic discipline. This should not even be happening in marriages–especially among Christian couples.

        Like

      15. aronhusband

        I am not confused about anything Joanna. I recognize the way that marriage functions, through authority and submission, and I recognize the harm done in abandoning that. Discipline is not “abuse” as you slanderously charge, but is a normal form of correction. Spanking is a legitimate form of correction, and after many tries, here and elsewhere, I have yet to hear a Christian provide any evidence it is wrong.

        What is abusive is attacking male authority, threatening divorce (which God calls bloody violence and which leaves trauma down entire generations), and misleading generations of young people about how marriage works. That is abusive. A spanking is a simple form of correction by a person who has the authority to use it.

        Like

    1. Joanna

      From the Bible it is taught that parents have authority over their children. It is also taught that a husband has authority over a wife.

      Yet it was also considered important enough to include that parents can physically chastise their children. If that is something easily inferred from ‘having authority’ (as you state is the case for your claim that ‘corrrection’ for wives is okay), then why was it made explicit in the case of children? If authority immediately equals endorsement for physical chastistement, then why was it spelled out when it came to children and not for wives?

      Then and now, adults have fewer issues with the idea that ‘correction’ can be used toward a child than with a wife, so surely, spelling it out would have been necessary in the wife’s case, if that’s what God wanted, and not in the child’s.

      Liked by 2 people

      1. aronhusband

        Joanna, That is not much of an argument. In short, you have ZERO passages from the Bible that teach that spanking is wrong. If it were actually wrong as a form of discipline, the Bible would not endorse it so many times. Spanking is legitimate as a form of discipline.

        It may not be mandated for husbands to spank their wives, but it is an acceptable use of authority, by the person who has authority — the husband. If I need a passage mandating spanking in order to spank, show me a passage mandating bedtimes for children. Or are you going to claim they are wrong too?

        Like

      2. Joanna

        Another thing to add: ‘Aronhusband’, do you believe that your boss has the right to spank you for turning up late/handing in poor work/not getting along with colleagues or any other failing on your part as the employee? After all, he or she (women make up a third of bosses) has authority over you, and spanking is a legitimate way to manage subordinates in your view? So I would imagine you wouldn’t have any issue with it?

        Liked by 1 person

      3. aronhusband

        Joanna, You have failed to demonstrate that spanking is wrong. You have failed to find any passage from Scripture that says spanking is wrong. That’s because it is not. Going to hypotheticals isn’t going to help your case, but I will answer your question.

        There is nothing inherently wrong in using corporal punishment either on criminals, or on badly behaved employees. In fact, it could be a useful measure for an employee as for anyone else. The Bible endorses corporal punishment for servants and slaves, and the modern equivalent of that role is employees. Moreover, MANY people would prefer to be disciplined that way than to be fined, demoted, or fired.

        It would simply be a short lesson to motivate someone, and turn them away from their error. I have no objection to placing myself under such a system in the workforce, so long as it functioned safely and justly.

        Like

    2. mmclainss

      I find it hysterical, (actually, it’s more sad than anything) how you demand a Bible verse that says not to spank your wife. The burden of proof, dear sir, is clearly on you, since you are trying to add something to the Bible that is not there. Second, you’ve been provided with a multiplicity of passages, and examples that clearly show just that, but you work your way around them and refuse to accept them. I’m pretty sure If I found a verse that said “Godly Men are to not ever spank their wives” you would demand that I find one that has your first and last name attached or it clearly would not be speaking to you. I don’t know though, in that case I could very clearly see why a passage written to Godly men would not apply to you.

      Like

      1. aronhusband

        That has been asked and answered very thoroughly. The burden of proof is on YOU if you want to claim it is unethical or sinful to spank your wife. No one on the planet needs a Bible verse specifically instructing them in everything to do. If we did, we’d all be sinning all the time with most of what we do. Do you have a Bible verse that tells you to give your children a timeout, or to send them to your room? Well, you don’t. But are you sinning if you use that as a form of discipline? We all know the answer. You are not.

        Neither does a husband sin when he spanks his wife as a part of disciplining her. He is using his rightful authority which is specifically given to him in Scripture, and is also known through natural law. It is God given authority. He fulfills that authority, fulfilling its purpose by leading her, turning her away from evil, protecting the entire home, and helping her to grow as a woman. That is a just and loving purpose of a husband disciplining his wife. Your fake moral outrage is without any biblical basis. That’s why no one can show it’s wrong from the Bible, despite probably tens of thousands of words so far. You just have your say-so.

        When you make your say-so a dogma, you are the one who is sinning. The Bible never prohibits wife spanking, but it does prohibit turning your personal opinions into the words of the living God. You are sinning and you need to repent, if you judge other Christians as wicked because of loving discipline. You need to reorient your heart, your understanding, your words, and behavior. Men who spank their wives are you beloved brothers and sisters in Christ. It is only your pride and anger which prevents you from seeing this.

        While I do not have my old website up, I do have two new ones. I work out of the love and passion of my heart regularly to help marriages function well, and to prepare young men and women for a godly marriage. Discipline turns out to be a very good tool which will help them. The churches have pretty much trashed marriage in the modern era. I will do all that I can continually to restore it.

        Glory to Jesus.

        P.S. One of my earlier comments I posted before being able to edit, so there are a couple of spelling and grammar errors. But the reader should be able to figure it out.

        Like

    1. aronhusband

      Maybe you ought to be banned, Joanna. This site provides men and women help in their marriages, and I have seen the good that comes when couples embrace their roles. It is good for them.

      Like

      1. Joanna

        I understand that you believe in keeping women as ignorant, financially dependent and passive as possible. Anyone woman outside of that level of vulnerability is more likely to argue against your justifications for spousal abuse. Added to that it is far easier for women to leave an abusive house if she is not trapped in the way you wish more women would be.

        Legally and philosophically, the burden of proof is on the person who makes the claim, not the person who rejects that claim. You have found no Bible passage that endorses the disgraceful way in which you treat your wife. You can call what I said ‘not much of an argument’, but it is the truth. If a husband’s authority conferred him the right to hurt his wife, then it would have been spelled out in the way in the way it was for a parent. The fact that it wasn’t was deliberate, and no holistic interpretation will change that.

        You come off as very combative and self-righteous in your replies. You have come to a place where a woman or girl’s opinion or defense of herself can’t be met with a beating from you or a deletion or blocking of her comment on your site. Women have a voice here, and not just when they have the ‘wisdom’ to agree with you.

        If your wife exists, I pity her desperately. You come off as a fetishist who gets thrills writing about women getting ‘humbled/adults having no autonomy/thinking of a man as a king/her “salty tears” and “gasping pained replies”‘. There are plenty of abusers hiding in the church, though, so who knows?

        Your way is becoming obsolete, thankfully; no woman deserves the fate you want for us.

        Liked by 2 people

      2. aronhusband

        Seeing as you have been completely unsuccessful at showing that spanking is wrong, your only route left is to immaturely lash out in any direction you can. Again, your reply is only proof that neither you nor anyone else can show that spanking adult females in marriage is wrong. You are just stating your personal opinion, and then ignorantly judging other people who think differently.

        Your answer assumes that having as much knowledge as possible is a good thing, or that being independent is a good thing, or that being in control is a good thing. You haven’t shown that to be true. You are just assuming they are good. Rather, a wife should have as much knowledge as she needs to be a wife, mother, and homemaker. She does not need more than that, and she certainly does not need to waste the best years of her life acquiring unnecessary knowledge, and being indoctrinated by people like you, usually in an environment of contraception and fornication. That’s an embarrassing waste of time and much money, and a poisonous environment for women.

        Nor does she need independence. Once you get married, whether man or woman, you are no longer independent. You are bound to another person. The wife is bound to her husband, and she is to submit to him and care for the home. The husband is bound to his wife, and he must love her, provide for her, and protect her. Neither one is independent, and that is the nature of marriage.

        A wife is naturally under her husband financially as well, since he holds the reins. However, she has daily access to all she needs. She has from him what she needs for clothing, food, household necessities, care of the children, and a number of things just for pleasure. If anything, we ought to be accusing the man of being a slave, not the other way around. He is working for her, and she is sustained by him. You just don’t like that she doesn’t hold the reins, and can’t leave him so easily as you’d like.

        A wife is to be active enough that she can serve God and serve her husband in a conscientious and lively way, and passive enough that she is fully able to listen and obey. In that way, she can fulfill her role as a godly woman and wife. To rebel against her husband, or abandon the home, is sin.

        You simply do not like that she cannot act like a feminist, and sin freely. That’s your problem. Yet the false independence you glorify, has led to the destruction of the family, and the destruction of formerly Christian civilization. It has led to more divorce and remarriage, more fornication, more contraception and abortion, more lesbianism, more witchcraft, far fewer children for our future, broken homes, greater crime by women, greater violence by women, more domestic assault committed by women, and of course more of our youth confused, in prison, on drugs, violent, and suicidal. Feminism and the destruction of the family are intrinsically linked, and bring their poison throughout entire people groups.

        Neither legally nor philosophically do I need to prove the Bible demands one spank their wife. You are wrong. Do you need to prove legally and philosophically that a parent can have a bedtime for their children with a mandate from Scripture? Do you need to prove legally or philosophically that a parent may give a timeout to their children, with a mandate from Scripture? No you do not. NOR do I need a mandate from Scripture to teach wife spanking. The mandate we have is through the man’s authority. His authority is explicitly taught in Scripture, and is known through natural law as well. That’s why Christians and pagans alike have spanked their wives for thousands of years. The man has authority, and discipline comes with that. Moreover, Scripture mandates corporal punishment clearly multiple times, so we know for a fact that spanking is not inherently wrong. Natural law also shows its great usefulness, and it has been extremely common for wives, servants, children, and criminals to be punished that way throughout the ages. The husband does not need explicit mandate for the Most High for every application of authority he uses. That’s nonsense. So you need to realize how poor your argument is and stop making it.

        I am no more combative or self-righteous than you are. I stand up for myself against false accusations, and ignorant insults from people like you. I state the truth plainly, and I point out falsehood. I rebuke evil and false teachings. You just do not like that you are unable to show that spanking is wrong, and that you have ZERO passages from the Bible on your side. So you try to paint me as being mean. Go look at yourself in the mirror. You have no basis to accuse your brother of doing wrong, so you are making an ignorant judgment apart from the Word of God, and you are sinning.

        I am happy to say not only have I seen readership of my website increase greatly in the past several years, but I have seen many couples — in my country and across the globe — start using discipline in their marriages. Along with that, they commonly respect headship and submission more than they did before. Some of the women give up careers to return to the home. They start having children. They start paying greater attention to their faith and the Word of God. They care more for personal holiness and for modesty. If they did not already, they start attending a church. One small common sense practice ties them into all the things which make a marriage, and the Christian life. That is grand. Hallelujah.

        Faithful Christians will always be with us, no matter who tries to wipe us out — no matter who tries to kill us, indoctrinate our children, or make us illegal. You will not stop us. We all know the Church will win in the end.

        Like

  10. Joanna

    And you have failed to prove that is is condoned. So we are at an impassé. I do not expect to find common ground with an abuser, so that is fine by me, and comparing beating women with ‘giving children a bedtime’ ad nauseum doesn’t change that. The burden of proof is on you. You have failed to show it. Let’s move on.

    I believe that being financially dependent, conditioned to not stand up for yourself/have boundaries and to sacrifice everything to the whims/needs/desires of another fallible human being, along with being uneducated, is an extremely vulnerable position to be in as a woman. I think that it can very often lead to danger, mistreatment and being trapped. This is all in addition to being (physically) weaker. If you truly cared about the ‘protection’ of women (as opposed to the domination of us), you would have some understanding and compassion toward the suffering that so many women under these conditions go through.

    It is not for you to decide what women do or do not need, and what will or will not fulfill us. We make those choices ourselves.

    I have read through your website, and it is one of the most sickening things I have ever come across. You speak a lot about a woman’s sin (for ‘rebelling’/leaving her husband if miserable/saying ‘no’ to sex), yet you ignore/play down almost all of the sins and crimes that are women are subjected to by men. If you have so much to say about the rate of women being violent to men going up, why do you not acknowledge how widespread domestic abuse is around the world (kicking, punching, acid attacks, rape), etc? Why, in a comment, where a woman describes being traumatised by being molested as a child by a male authority figure, is the focus of your answer in how her husband can be pleased sexually?

    Why do you speak so passionately about the *justice* in women being subjected to ‘sexual training’ and welts and bruises from being beaten with a belt/other object as an answer to their ‘crimes/sins’ (being late or ‘foul badmouth’) yet discourage the idea of men seeing justice for their very real crime and sin of violence (kicking, punching, etc, leaving the woman tormented and defeated in her own home) by the woman separating from her husband and entering a shelter and going to the police?

    Yes, you’re right. Feminism has led to more divorce. I imagine you would prefer things to return to how we were before things got safer for women starting in the mid-19th century? When it was incredibly difficult for a woman to divorce/get her husband to face justice, even if he was a monster.

    Too many men were sadists who saw women as property. Too many men are like that now. As a group, you cannot be trusted with ‘protecting women’. You’re the ones we need protection from, so we’ll stick with our rights.

    Appealing to tradition to advocate for what’s ‘natural’ is a common but silly mistake. Slavery was once commonplace, as was eugenics, as was committing women to asylums because ‘reading too many novels’ meant they had ‘hysteria’. We learn and we develop, correcting mistakes along the way. That’s how civilisation works.

    You’re quite naive/blissfully hopeful if you believe that visitors to your site means much. They could (like me) be visiting and reading with disgust/trying to work out if you’re a troll/fantasist. Attention isn’t always good attention. I’ve seen your site discussed on Reddit, and they were just as horrified as I was. But if comments and emails from anons breathe life into your fantasy, I can see how you would grip onto that.

    The Church is losing people every year, and docs like ‘Shiny Happy People’ are giving an illustration as to why. So unless the fundies/evangelics start changing their M.O. from secrecy and victim-blaming to accountability for abusers, I don’t see that changing.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. aronhusband

      Your first argument has been asked multiple times, and answered multiple times. The answer is this:

      No one needs to have specific biblical teachings for every last application of authority they use. No one. The Bible gives them authority, so they may use that authority as they see fit, while not sinning.

      If your argument made sense, you would have to give specific biblical teaching which allows a parent to give a timeout, or set a bedtime for their children. Yet you have NO such teachings. I guess parents are all being bad when they do so. An employer also would have to have specific biblical teaching to keep their workplace safe by camera, and allow a set time for potty breaks for employees as well. Yet so such biblical teaching exists. That would mean, by your logic, nearly everyone in authority is being BAAAD because they don’t have any explicit teaching. Yet you know such logic is faulty, and you could never apply it to your own life.

      A husband has biblical mandate that gives him authority. That is clear. Within that authority, any by the nature of authority, he has a right to discipline his wife. Considering you cannot show there is anything wrong with the form of discipline known as spanking, then he may use this. The Bible itself condones spanking so you cannot say it is wrong in itself. You just have your personal opinion, that if it is an adult female in marriage who receives one, then spanking becomes bad. But that’s only your sayso, and the Bible says no such thing.

      Considering you are the one judging others as bad because they spank their wives, you need some actual evidence. Yet you have none! You have no passages from Scripture, nor do you have logical proof. You just have your opinion, which you just keep repeating, while ignoring my refutation of your arguments.

      You cannot judge a brother based on your opinion, and you sin when you do so. Your opinion is NOT the Word of God, but is only your opinion. So you need to stop judging your brother, and try being humble. Face the facts you have been unable to defend your assertion that spanking a wife is bad, or unChristian in any way. Face it. You have no evidence. Stop making false accusations.

      You can “feel” what you like, but those feelings are not facts. Men are the ones to lead and provide for the home, so but for rare occasions, women simply do not need to have a high level of education. It often wastes time, money, and deeply corrupts them.

      Being dependent on a husband apparently didn’t cause nearly as much problem for marriage as exists in marriage today, for when wives were more commonly dependent, marriages lasted longer, they produced enough children for our future, and children were not as deeply troubled, medicated, murderous or suicidal. Women did not commit nearly as much violence and crime either.

      If dependence makes someone “vulnerable” that’s not a big problem. You are going to have to rely on trust no matter whom you marry. Life involves sacrifice, as does the life of the Christian especially. Moreover, the husband sacrifices as well, pouring all his labors to support his family and train his children. Considering what feminists have done to marriage, many men do not even want to marry, nor trust a woman. Many will not marry without a signed legal agreement first. Men are just as vulnerable, certainly of having their money and children stolen, with little legal recourse if that happens, and are also vulnerable to the violence that the contemporary female does.

      Yet two Christians trusting each other are not terrified of marriage, nor do they need a signed legal agreement to protect from all the destructive things their spouse might do to them in a divorce. They don’t need to think about that. They just do the job God told them to do. That includes a wife submitting to her husband, bearing children, and keeping the home. This is not a matter of man’s personal preference. It is the Word of God.

      In lieu of trusting a man, and submitting as they are supposed to, many women are far more vulnerable than before. They are vulnerable to becoming an impure fornicator, pregnant outside of wedlock, beaten by boyfriend after boyfriend, unable to produce enough children for us to have a future, incapable of having companionship besides their pets. The modern egalitarian woman is incredibly vulnerable. She is also vulnerable to all the violence done by the poorly raised youths, who are a product of that egalitarianism in the first place, as the progeny of broken homes comes back to beat, rape, and murder at will. That is vulnerable. A Christian marriage is not. It is a rock. It protects women, and protects children. It’s the best place for man, woman, and child.

      Neither I nor women make the choices about what we need. God makes those choices, and you choose to ignore them to your great harm. Contemporary marriage is a disaster in the West, and anyone representing those values has no business lecturing anyone on marriage and the family. The society you come from has ruined those things. It needs to learn, not lecture.

      If you have read through my website, then you should not be preparing arguments about why I do not speak a great deal about correcting men. That’s not what the website is about. It is about headship in marriage, and specifically focuses on the discipline of wives. If it were all about marriage, or all about gender, or all about morality, there would be a very different balance of material. However, considering its topic and its focus, you will naturally see MUCH more about correcting wives than you will see about correcting men.

      In the articles and the comments I DO address the topic of sin coming from men, as well as the fact he can be corrected by peers, by the Church, and by the government. As far as speaking about the incredible increase in filth, immorality, and violence by women, half the time that is in response to people like YOU, who are trying to make patriarchy look bad, and make their soft brand of feminism look good. So I need to put them in their place, and respond with the facts, including the incredible increase in crime and violence by women since feminism. Stop making the wrong portrayal of marriage, and you won’t have to hear such arguments so often anymore.

      Again, when I put up a website specifically about crime, law, violence in society, you will see more material that relates to correcting men who are violent. Until then, you will not, because that’s not what the website is about.

      But the question for you is, why do you go on and on about male violence, while ignoring the fact that the philosophy you espouse has led to an incredible increase in violence by women? Why do you ignore the incredible increase in divorce? In immorality? In abortion? The incredible increase in broken homes, out of wedlock births, disturbed and violent youths? The record high suicides? You just keep on like a broken record having a pity party for women, while ignoring the evil women do, and the evil produced by secular feminist society. You need to step back from your favorite pursuits, and look at the whole truth.

      One of the very reasons men are more violent today, than when we had much more patriarchy, is that their job has been taken from them. They have little purpose. They are also a product of permissiveness, that for the male will include more violence, and fornication. You have more violent men because of abandoning the Word of God, on many fronts. You have more violent men because of broken homes and fatherless families. The very problem you complain about would be solved in large part with obeying God, and father led homes, husband led marriages. Men doing their jobs, as leaders, could turn this around in a single generation. But keep tearing apart the family, and telling women they can do what they please, and giving them the advantages, you will not see any change, until perhaps the government mandates that everyone gets drugged up with chemicals to keep them passive. God’s Word works, so you should cease ignoring it when it comes to the home.

      You are a feminist, and you need to understand that your worldview is faulty. You are standing on sand. This is clear in your statement that, if made by a man regarding women in general, would be called sexist. You claim you cannot trust men, yet in the era in which you claim men were horrible and violent, they did a MUCH better job of protecting women. Marriages lasted for life most of the time, and we had children who were raised much better, and we had enough of a future that we didn’t need to import people who hate us just to have laborers in the future. Fewer women were fornicators, adulterers, violent, committed abortions, practiced sorcery, or got violent with their husbands. There was less suicide as well.

      So you can keep making all the slanderous claims about men you want, but you are wrong, and this society would call you a hater and a bigot if you said those things about any other group. Women need men’s love, leadership, and protection, They flourish under it. They feel safer and happier. they produce children, and they do a better job at raising them. In this we are all rewarded. Marriage is of the greatest importance, and it blesses society down into the future. It is one man and one woman for life, headed by the man, who loves and leads his wife. She helps her husband, bears and nurtures the children, and takes care of the home. That is the family. Not a woman on welfare with children with no father, or an old woman with two dogs. Follow God’s plan and not man’s.

      I am not “naive” as you claim. You’re just looking around for another insult. I am well aware that not every single visitor agrees with my teachings, has the same faith or worldview. However, I know that I reach many people and I thank God on my knees for that. I also have many interactions with my readers, some of whom I know are sincere, and whom I have gotten to know over an extended time. I’ve worked with many couples to help start discipline in their marriage, whether present or future, and seen them better their lives in other ways besides that. Being serious about discipline includes being serious about other and bigger things. Many have become more serious about their faith. I will continue to reach out to people through my website, and through other venues. I know it helps marriages, and I want to undo much of the damage secular society has done. It really works.

      The Church is losing people every year (in the West) because of unbelief in the Bible, and because of liberal Christianity. It has been losing believers in large numbers since the 19th century when masses of people stopped believing what the Bible teaches. Today entire denominations are pretty much apostate with their liberalism, and people who go there finally see there’s no purpose in a church so liberal it’s pretty much the same thing you could have without one. So they leave. Liberal denominations are bleeding members, in the U.S. and in Europe. There’s just no point in a Church like that. However, in other parts of the world the Church is growing. In fact, it has likely grown more in the past few centuries than in all the time before that.

      Holiness is the way God teaches us to live. Obedience and repentance is God’s will for us. That is how a family must live and raise their children, whether someone wants to wrongly portray it as cruel. What is cruel is raising children without God’s Word, and allowing them to be shaped by the secular society, worship its heroes, live life by its expectations. I’d take a modestly dressed young woman, who is discreet and pure, who may have been exposed to BIll Gothard, over a drugged up, suicidal, secular child who does not even who what sex he is, and for whom fornication is truly normal. It’s not a difficult choice.

      The only people who would be afraid of Christianity because of a movie that slanders Christians are those who know little about it in the first place. But for all the ignorance such movies spread, many more sources are teaching the truth, and are leading souls to Jesus. Headship of the man is God’s way for marriage. So is gender roles. Modesty. Holiness. Obedience. Not only that, but it is good for mankind, nourishing and blessing us.

      Like

      1. Joanna

        Yes, security cameras weren’t mentioned in the Bible. That illustrates your point well.

        Considering it is more controversial, then and now, like I said, to use corporal punshment on a wife than on a child, it makes little sense that the bible would be explicit in the case of the child and not in the woman. You called that ‘not much of an argument, but it is.’ Warped interpretation leads to all sorts of evil.

        By your logic, a husband should be able to call his wife an ‘ugly mess’ if she seems a bit too pleased with a coat she’s just bought. After all, as her authority, he is only teaching her against the sin of vanity and ‘leading’ her in humility and modesty’. Similarly, a husband can command a woman to stand on the kitchen table for 48 hours in order to ‘train’ her to be more submissive. I (and I hope you) consider both of these things to be demeaning, abusive and horrible ways of testing power. But another husband might consider them adequate ways of ‘managing’ the wife who comes under his ‘wing of protection and authority’.

        You can say that these two acts of the husband go against ‘husbands, do not be harsh with your wives’ and ‘love your wives as yourself’, but the things you suggest (beating a woman until she has welts and bruises with a belt) or have not condemned on your site (slapping her face, pulling her ears and hair) or said she must do even if you think it’s wrong (anal), clearly go against these verses too. Do you not see women as people? Do you have any compassion or even respect for our humanity?.

        ‘Being dependent on a husband apparently didn’t cause nearly as much problem for marriage as exists in marriage today, for when wives were more commonly dependent, marriages lasted longer…’ – Are you being serious? It was almost impossible for a woman to get a divorce (and hard to even get a separation). She was trapped, regardless of how she was being treated. The laws were biased against women (perhaps you can acknowledge this while talking about how ‘unfair’ things are for men today). Their money (even if they worked) was under the control of the husband (making the women effectively slaves), their children were considered their husbands, they could be beaten, raped and imprisoned in the house, and society (greatly influenced by the church, along with male tyranny) conditioned them to be silent and forgiving no matter what.

        If your two metrics of success are ‘they stayed together’ and ‘more children were born’ then yes, they were more successful. If you consider quality of life to be important (and not just quantity of people), then you will realise that what you look back at fondly has nothing to do with the safety, peace, happiness, health and dignity of the women and children (more than half of society).

        How do you know that people were less suicidal, murderous and medicated? Which period of history are you talking about? Crimes of almost every type are reported more nowadays, but it doesn’t follow that there is more crime. A) There are better ways of detecting crime and catching criminals now (security cameras, fingerprinting, wiretapping, etc.) B) There are more things that are recognised as crimes now (e.g. a wealthy married father in 1750 could have gone home, beaten his wife children, apprentices and servants and then finished off the night with raping his wife and still none of it would have technically been a crime – and much of the time the victims would have felt compelled to stay silent).

        Also, even from what we know, your logic is faulty. In the few years after 1971 (the year ‘no-fault divorce’ was introduced in the US), female suicide rates dropped by 20%. Fewer husbands were found dead having mysteriously ingested rat poison after eating dinner. In the 1950s, ‘Mommy’s Little Helper’ was a phenomenon (a replacement for just alcohol and laudenum that unhappy wives often resorted to in the preceding centuries), and men had undiagnosed PTSD from the war that they dealt with using alcohol. ‘Stiff upper lip’/’don’t let people know your business’ was strong back then. It didn’t mean that all sorts of crimes weren’t occurring and being covered up/repressed.

        It’s interesting how you can be so glib about female vulnerability (women who, it bears repeating, could be beaten, raped and locked up with a great deal of impunity, as well have her own money and children used to tie her husband, as she couldn’t survive penniless) in marriages of the past, yet you seem very understanding of men’s worries/distrust today. Alimony is only awarded in 11% of divorces, and mostly to the housewives who need a safety net. Marry a dreaded career woman/financially independent woman, and he won’t need to worry about ‘his’ money being taken. As for his children ‘being stolen’ and child support, if you look it up, most of the time a man fights for joint custody, he gets it (and if it’s 50/50), typically he won’t have to pay money. The issue is that many men don’t fight for full or joint custody (perhaps because they realise that taking care of their children 100% half of the time is quite overwhelming compared to the 15-20% they did all of the time when living with their wife).

        Other than that, I do not pity these men who are ‘walking away’ from marriage because they dislike the idea of the wife being able leave if she is miserable. They don’t deserve a wife.

        Again, why so much focus on female violence. In anything other than self-defense I disagree with it, but the violence women commit (murder, sexual assault, severe beatings), isn’t close to what men do, and male violence you keep downplaying.

        Weren’t you a self-professed ‘player’? As for ‘jumping from abusive bf to abusive bf’, it’s good that you recognise that male violence is far more widespread than just ‘a few rotten apples in the tiny minority’. Many men would be violent given the chance with a vulnerable woman. But at least she can leave and hopefully heal, find someone better or be happy single. Boundaries, assertiveness, good self-worth and financial autonomy help with that, all things you preach against for women.

        I cannot believe what I am reading. Your website is completely about male violence. You write at length about which implements to use, how making her cry/seeing her humilated and degraded/giving her bruises/seeing her fearful is good. You advocate for more leniency when it comes to husbandly violence. You look back postively at the past when wife beating was more common, include historical Russian wedding anecdotes that satisfy you deeply. You look to countries and religions where domestic violence is more hush hush. Your blog is ‘Male Violence (against women): The Website’.

        I am a proud feminist, but I also grew up going to a Baptist Church in Scotland. You would probably consider it a useless wishy-washy modern church (11yo girls weren’t chided for tempting adult men by running about and showing their knees, for example). It is the ‘fire and brimstone’ teaching that is pushing people away. They hate the corruption, abuse, authority figures with God/King complexes and they despise the hypocrisy/lack of accountability. Look up what people who have left say. I am not lying. And as a Scottish moderate protestant outsider looking in, I dislike much of what I hear about Fundies/Evangelicalism in the US, but I’ll never be as vitriolic as the people who have lived it and come out the other side.

        Adapt, start humanising women and stop mistreating them. Get rid of your ego/entitlement and encourage your fellow brothers to do the same. It’s never too late to change for the better.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. aronhusband

        Joanna, As I have said, and will repeat until you learn, you have made the accusation that spanking in marriage is wrong. You provide no passages from Scripture which teach that. You provide no logical proof. Since that is the case, you need to cease making that accusation immediately, as you are judging a brother falsely, and also treating your personal opinion as the Word of God, which it certainly is not. That is sin.

        Moreover, while you express horror that a wife’s tender bottom will get bruised, you know very well that God himself endorses corporal punishment. He even endorses it for bottoms tenderer than a wife’s, that of a child’s. He also endorses it as civic punishment, a form of whipping generally more severe than what a wife will encounter. So your horror and affront at wives being spanked is far afield from biblical truth, which treats corporal punishment as a valid punishment, and apparently humane enough for the Almighty.

        It will leave marks, and there is nothing wrong with that.

        You still, for all your arguing, provide no evidence for your case. It is simply built on your personal offense at spanking wives. Where is the evidence? You have no answer to the face that you and everyone else uses applications of authority which do not appear in the Bible, yet continue to condemn men who spank their wives, and demand they have some explicit mandate. You know very well they don’t need it. You’re just looking for a reason to complain. You are a feminist.

        If a husband might call his wife an “ugly mess,” then by your logic a parent might call their child an ugly mess ,and an employer might call their employee an ugly mess, since each of those people regularly apply authority in ways apart from Scripture. So your argument would act to nullify any and all applications outside of Scripture, for you, and for anyone in authority everywhere. They just might misuse it.

        The fact that we are free to use applications apart from Scripture doesn’t mean we do anything in the world. We act with love, with respect, and for the good of all. There may be no formula which answers every last thing we may and may not do, but we do our best to stay within general biblical guidelines and otherwise reasonable behavior.

        Yet you are insisting that something God explicitly endorses many times is somehow wrong when it befalls a wife’s dear bottom. That is silly. Spanking is not wrong in itself, and if it were, God would not endorse it in Scripture. You are just trying to use your personal preference to condemn men who spank, and, as you have done from the start, treat your preference as the Word of God, and judge other people by it. You are making a long-winded attempt at treating your opinion as God.

        No. Spanking does NOT go against the verses you cite. Neither of the verses teach you may not spank your wife. ALL people are taught to love one another, not just husbands and wives. God is love according to Scripture. Yet we are also told we may use corporal punishment, and that God chastises His people, sometimes quite harshly. What that means, is that spanking is not opposed to love, and spanking is not overly harsh according to biblical love, including God’s nature itself. Parents are to love their children, for example, yet they are also to spank them. Spanking and love go hand in hand. You are trying to find anything you can, but Scripture does not support you, as it does not prohibit spanking, nor does it prohibit the spanking of wives. Spanking itself it explicitly endorses multiple times.

        What Scripture DOES prohibit is tearing apart a marriage and taking a new spouse. There is something the Church actually has a problem with. There is something which is actually wrong, and which we have every business judging another by. The Christian who does violence through divorce, and who lives in adultery with a second spouse should be judged, and the Church should demand they repent. Spanking isn’t bad. Divorce and adultery are. That is the big problem with marriage. Not a wife getting spanked.

        Yes, I am serious, and the facts support me. Women got married younger, more often, and stayed married for much longer. That is success. Many marriages actually lasted for life, as God commands. They produced enough children for our future. The children were better educated, more literate, more respectful, and less likely to beat, rob, shoot, rape, or stab you. They also didn’t take psychiatric drugs so often, get on dope, or commit suicide. That is because they had Christian values at home, a stable home with mother and father, and were taught the Word of God. The fact there were laws which helped support that way of life changes nothing . There ought to be laws which support what is good, rather than permit what is evil and shameful.

        The culture which has destroyed marriage and the family has zero business lecturing anyone on the family. It has no moral highground either, to declare spanking a wife is bad. It places women under much more stress, and in much more danger, and turns her into a much more impure creature. People who have destroyed marriage need to listen and learn. They have nothing to lecture anyone about.

        Dependency is not bad. We are all reliant on someone. A wife’s sacrifice in marriage, just as her husband’s sacrifice, is GOOD. She devotes herself to her husband and to her children. She pours her energy into nurturing and training her children, and prays for them daily. Instead of dreaming of personal fulfillment, and of gaining wealth, she sets aside her desires to help others. She is soft. She is nurturing. She trusts and obeys her husband, despite the fact he is not perfect and like anyone he sins, and she keeps doing that for life. That is what a godly wife does. It is neither better nor worse than her husband’s sacrifice, which also sets aside much personal fulfillment for the good of the family and the glory of God.

        If you do not believe me, you can look up when the crime went to hell in the U.S., and it was the mid late 20th century, and came along with the rest of the rebellion against Christian values, including the feminism. Suicide is a record pace, as is psychiatric medication. Look it up. The birth rate also went down, although it had been declining already for some time. The no-replacement birth rate is from the latter half of the 20th century. Divorce skyrocketed. Homosexual behavior, including lesbianism increased, and then became normalized. People pretending to be the opposite sex has increased exponentially. Secular values, including feminism and the destruction of the family, are close to the heart of what has occurred. It was a radical change of belief, and came with terrible and terrifying consequences.

        Like anything else, of course, there are much earlier roots. Certainly, there has been great doubt in the Bible for several hundred years, and this led to gradual liberalism in the mainline Protestant denominations, and later in the Roman Catholic Church. Humanism as a religion has been on the rise for a hundred years. So I do not pinpoint a single cause, but see feminism and the attack on the family as instrumental. I don’t see how there’s any denying that.

        For all those mothers who could be at home training their children in the Lord, but instead are pursuing a career, we see many of their children turned over to secular institutions to basically raise and train instead, and we see the predictable results. Godliness is not passed down. Rather, worldliness, normalizing sin, and leftist politics are passed down. In large part that is because of wives who refuse to do their job, and place their dreams before their husband and children That is truly shameful. It is wicked.

        You continually want to live in a world in which women are the victims. They are not. In a real marriage, they are loved and protected. However, in your feminist and secular society, you have no problem making men the victims. Women initiate the large majority of divorces. The are given the children the large majority of the time. Men can be threatened with jail time if they do not pay up. Men can be thrown in jail for disciplining their wives, which they have every right to do. The large majority of unreciprocated acts of domestic violence in the U.S. are by women. As I have cited more than once, feminism inspired women towards much more crime and much more violence, to say nothing of the impurity and immorality which spread at the time.

        Independence and feminism are what victimize women. It’s bad for them. God’s way in marriage treats women right. It provides for them. It keeps them pure. It uses them for their best purposes according to their dignity. It gives them a glorious role in society no one else in the world can do, and which men certainly cannot do, which in fact provides our future. You simply close your eyes to the facts to continue in your fantasy.

        My website is not about male violence. My website is about discipline of wives. That is no more violence than spanking children is, or than law enforcement by the state is. It is the just use of authority by the one in authority. You just don’t like it. The women who are punished earned it, and will learn from their consequences. It is for their good, and the good of the home. That’s what discipline provides and it is good. That is why men, as well as many women, seek out discipline for their marriage. It is a cure to many problems, and a loving healing balm.

        If you are a feminist, you should stop playing the hypocrite. That means you should stop pretending that you care what the Bible teaches. You do not care. If you cared what the Bible teaches you would not be a feminist. You cite Scripture only to deny it again a thousand times over. You cannot play Christian. If you trust in God you ALSO trust in the words He speaks to us. His Word is clear about many things, including marriage. It teaches male authority. It teaches female submission. It teaches the wife’s role in being a homemaker. It endorses corporal punishment many times.

        The Bible is JUST as true when it says women keep silent in the churches as when it says He is not here, for He is risen. It’s all truth. We cannot pick and choose. God did not stop speaking truth when He taught gender roles. He is always a God of truth, and His truth is always good and we must obey.

        Believing God is not “fundamentalism.” It is called Christianity.

        You need to repent of your unbelief in God’s Word, Joanna. You need to repent of your rebellion against male authority. It is truly satanic. To rebel against the Christ head of the home is to rebel against Christ. Humble yourself, seek forgiveness, and place yourself under Christ and under your man.

        Like

  11. SubmissiveWife

    Arguing with aronhusband and others like him is pointless. No abusive man will ever admit what they do is actual abuse. When you add religion to abuse, you will NEVER get through to these types of men. His blog is disgusting and full of abusive men. He approves men doing whatever he wants to his wife. The husband can even throw his wife down the steps, break all her bones and the wife is expected to take it because the man has authority. If the man wants to force anal sex on the wife, aronhusband says she has to accept it (although he does condemn anal sex). If the man quits his job and becomes a bully at home, the woman has to accept it because he’s the authority in the home. Check his blog out and see for yourself. These men control what their wives wear, even what time they go to bed. I can only imagine the beatings the wife faces if she’s too tired or too sick to make dinner one night. I would guess that if you pulled these women aside and asked them if they want the beatings to stop, almost all of them would say yes.

    My husband is the head of household and the authority in our home, and he was disgusted by aronhusband’s views on how to treat the woman you love. My husband doesn’t need to beat me into submission. I submit to him because I love him (and because he’s the man), and because he’ll do anything to make me happy, even if it inconveniences him. I’ll do anything he wants because he asks me, not because he pulls off his belt and beats me. Sometimes, he’ll even submit to me! Plenty of times we had differing opinions on something, but my husband went with what I wanted. That’s love. Whipping me with a belt because I didn’t clean the house to his standards isn’t love (and my husband cleans too!). If I’m not in the mood one evening, my husband doesn’t beat me into submission or force himself on me, he understands and waits until the next evening. If my husband doesn’t like something I’m wearing to go out, he’ll ask me to change (and I do, because I respect him). He doesn’t beat me with a wooden spoon.

    These men are using religion to abuse and control their wives. Why not just lay down your expectations without abuse? Your wife will follow it without you needing to put her in the corner naked or hit her. If she doesn’t respect your authority, then go into marriage counseling at the church. But these men don’t know how to lead their families without physical violence. My first marriage was very abusive so I feel so horrible for these women. And it’s even worse for them because they believe they’ll be punished by God if they refuse to be beat.

    Instead of arguing with these abusive men who will keep trying to justify their abuse, we have to find a way to reach the women, who are the victims and don’t even know it. It’s difficult to reach them though, because the husbands control every single aspect of their lives, even their friends. One man on aronhusband’s blog bragged about not letting his wife speak to the wife of his friend until they (the men) were done talking, then the women had to talk about “womanly” things only. So it’s an uphill battle. But we have to keep going. And hopefully more men will speak against this type of abuse disguised as love.

    Liked by 2 people

    1. Thank you for your comments. I agree. Arguing with him is pointless. God fearing men would never do what he and others who think like him do to their wives. True leadership is done out of love and respect. These men belittle and degrade their wives whom they profess to love. Like you, I hope that more men would speak out against this spousal abuse.

      I pray that these women will be reached somehow and that these men will no longer get away with their abuse. Marriage is meant to be a beautiful, loving, God centered covenant between a man and a woman but these men have profaned it.

      These wives who are actually their husbands’ victims, need to know that God would never punish them for refusing to be beaten. He hates violence of any kind. He created the woman to be the man’s companion, his helpmate. He is supposed to love her as Christ loves the church and gave His life for it. These men don’t love their wives. If they did, they wouldn’t abuse and mistreat them under some misguided notion that they are disciplining them. I agree with you that they are using religion to abuse and control them. The Bible teaches what a marital relationship should be like but these men have twisted it into something that is of the devil and not of God.

      These men abuse their wives and call it authority. They are bullies.

      Like

    2. aronhusband

      Submissive wife,

      Yes, arguing with me is indeed pointless for one reason:

      You don’t have the truth on your side. You cannot defend your position because it is wrong. You accusations have no basis. For all of these reasons it is pointless. I have gone on at great length with people who insist that spanking an adult female in marriage is wrong, and not one of them has been able to show the evidence that it is wrong. They just have their assertion, the trends of their culture, and their anger at men who spank their wives. It’s just one ball of baseless judgment on their part. That’s why, on examination, it cannot be defended.

      You re no better than they. You can falsely accuse me of abuse, but you cannot show that spanking is wrong in any way. Label others abusers a million times and you simply have not made it so. You have not shown that it is somehow unjust or cruel. You have not shown it is significantly dangerous. You only have your ridiculous insult of abuse, and you sling it around because you do not like wife spanking. But you’re wrong, and that is shown by the fact you cannot prove your case.

      You like others misuse love. Spanking is indeed loving. That is clear by the fact that discipline looks after the good of the one being disciplined, and looks after the good of the entire household. It keeps household peace, and helps a wife do her job more effectively. Moreover, discipline and spanking specifically, are in harmony with biblical love. In fact a God of love both chastises His beloved, and also mandates spanking in some instances. There’s no getting out of that fact. So you can make all the claims you want about spanking being unloving, and slander men who use it, but God says you are wrong.

      Nearly everyone I have heard who rises in false judgment against wife spanking, endorses violence themselves. Real violence. That is the violence of divorce, which they believe is acceptable, even though God calls divorce a bloody act. They endorse the violence of the state tearing apart families, and forcing a parent, usually the man, to give up his children and his money. They endorse the violence of throwing people in jail if they do pay up the money they need to, or if they do not give up their children. They also endorse the violence of jail for many other alleged or real offenses. That means they are the biggest hypocrites imaginable. They endorse a form of punishment which causes terrible harm, and causes such harm for many years, while claiming that the passing pain of a spanking, which fades in minutes or a few days, is horrible and unjust. That is too laughable to be taken seriously, and only highlights the fact you don’t know how to judge the matter.

      If your husband can manage you well without spanking, that’s fine. If you are well behaved and honor your husband without discipline, very good. But you have no business judging others who spank, and who will testify to its benefits many times over. Cease making false accusations against others, and accusing them of being unloving or abusive. You are wrong, and that’s why you all can never successfully defend your case.

      Like

      1. Joanna

        For being a man who insists that what he believes, says and does is not rooted in the desire to see women (both generally and in the case of his poor wife, specifically) degraded, so much of his rhetoric consists of demeaning language.. ‘managing his wife’/’well-behaved wife’/’female insubordination’/molding her’. It’s very revealing! On his website a purported Indian follower spoke of Aronhusband telling him that women are like children and should be caught young and ‘shaped’. He uses ‘female’ every so often (but always man), a telltale sign of incels.

        It goes beyond speaking about women as if they were children. He speaks about women as if we were dogs. It’s extremely unsettling and the outpouring of a disturbed mind.

        I’m still leaning toward this being a fantasy for him and his followers, a kink for sadistic people who want to hurt women.

        Liked by 2 people

      2. aronhusband

        You need to look at what your own language is revealing, as well as your own admission to what you believe. You are claiming that “managing a wife” and “insubordination” are demeaning language, but that assumes egalitarianism from the start. There is nothing demeaning about that language when you realize a wife is subject to her husband, as the Bible teaches. It is simply language that deals with managing and correcting one under your authority. Like most other spanking husbands, I am strongly against demeaning a wife. Treating her according to her role, which is as a submissive helper, is not demeaning at all. It accurately describes the situation.

        You have also already admitted you are in favor of submitting those under authority to commands and punishment. You support divorce, despite its documented harms, and despite the fact it is called violence in Scripture. You accept that those under the authority of the law can and will be forced to pay money, and to give up their children. You accept that if those under the law don’t do as they are told, they can be forcefully put in chains, and locked in a cage with dangerous people. You support that if they resist the law, serious violence can be done to them. So people who accept or openly support all that use of authority, including that which is plainly wrong, have no business complaining about a man telling his wife what to do, or spanking her when she deserves it. You support much harsher things yourself.

        You may not like hearing people compare women to children, but every day you can hear people speak of “toxic masculinity” and “deadbeat dads” and how to be safe from violence or rape if you go out on a date with a man. To be fair, that ought to offend you as well. The Word of God apparently also offends you, because it teaches that women are weaker, it teaches that they are in subordination to their man, it teaches them to be gentle and quiet towards their man, and it teaches that the woman was deceived, which helps to explain the fact she is under authority of men. You can try and pick apart something you don’t like, but you don’t like it because it’s true, and it offends your personal belief system.

        You have to write off what you do not like and what you do not understand as a kink or a fantasy because it tears apart your own worldview. We have seen that in that you and others simply cannot prove there’s anything wrong with it, and we have seen your contradictions endlessly. You can claim it is just men who like to hurt women, but by the same logic, since you yourself endorse violence by the state, you must be a person who loves to hurt both men and women. You must be a sadist, or in the language of the day, a toxic narcissist. You support violence yourself, remember, as well as many other forms of punishment, so long as it’s not in marriage. I will never cease calling you out for this hypocrisy. The language you use applies better to you and other feminists than it does to me.

        Being the internet, you can be sure that some of what you read is fantasy. But that is true of other subject matters too. Some of what you read about men being abusers is also fantasy, so let that give you pause to think. I describe my real life, as I actually live it, with a few details changed for the sake of anonymity. I spank my wife when she has earned it. Having spoken with many others online, and interacted at length, I find most are sincere, though there are many fantasists and trolls as well.

        It would be nice to make the inconvenient truth of marital discipline disappear, but you cannot and never will. It is a useful and righteous use of authority, and millions of married couples still use it today. Millions more practice it outside of marriage, though that is an inappropriate use. It is rooted in the truth of the man’s authority, and is written into our natures. That’s why marital discipline has been used for thousands of years, in cultures all across the globe.

        Like

  12. Liz

    Hello All, and thank you for this wonderful website to the owner for helping women become their best selves. I too support my husband as my head, but it is done in only a nurturing and loving environment as “Submissive wife” says. I have a few thoughts I hope I may share, related to all I have read here and CDD/DD websites:
    My biblical pastor says, “even if wife spanking is not prohibited by the bible, why take the chance? Submission is a wonderful gift of a godly wife to a husband, but the joy and wonder of marriage can never be truly realized if one spouse chastises the other”. Beautiful words to live by.
    Secondly,some of the women on the website of wife spanking have 5 or more children, homeschool, and clean, cook, do laundry and all of the other things that go to taking care of a home. Think for a minute, if you have large families AND you homeschool, you could have a newborn, toddlers, and school age children you have to manage all day. What could a woman do in this situation that would cause them to be spanked? Shouldn’t their husband be on their knees every night praising them for doing all this while they are off to work. If they forgot something they were told 3 times, does a husband really think it was intentional? I was blessed with one child (who went to school at age 5), worked and had a part time housekeeper (at my husband’s insistence) and went to be every night exhausted. I cannot even fathom how these women feel at the end of the day much less be forced into sex acts that by their own admission on the website are uncomfortable with.
    I know a young woman who was going to go into a discipline marriage, but when she read the comments (not so much the author’s articles, while she disagrees with those she feels he writes more with a balanced view of marriage and discipline, in her opinion) of several men and when she showed them to her fiance, he said, good heavens, I would never be that extreme as (insert one of 7 screen names she identified). The groom’s parents live this way, but his father assured the young woman that he had not punished his wife in years and his punishments were mild. But she has broken off the engagement, because she cannot be sure he will not turn into one of those men. The young man is heartbroken and is considering not using discipline if he can convince her again to marry. So not everyone is convinced of this lifestyle. Hopefully people are not naive enough to think this works in every marriage.
    They seem to still spank their wives after decades together, another thing that puzzles me.
    It is interesting that many of the CDD/DD websites that were popular are now defunct (such as Christian Domestic Discipline Life). I wonder why. Also, I noticed the number of female led marriage websites has exploded (I do not support wives spanking husbands either). Just an interesting trend.
    It seems many women on these sites introduced the practice to their husbands. I am not sure why this happens. I don’t think I have seen anything about pushing women down stairs and breaking all their bones, but forced sex acts, bruising and welting behinds and thighs, caning, figging, mouth soaping and other acts don’t really sound much better, do they?
    I am a college science professor. I have 75% women in my classes now, and it was only about 25% when I started teaching many years ago. My male and female colleagues (and my pastor and his colleagues) are committed to ensuring women become their best selves, and find lifelong husbands, where they can help each other blossom.
    As an aside, the American Academy of Pediatrics has come out, after decades of research, against spanking children. They can cause life long problems as they become adults. I do understand what the bible says about children, but there are many different ways to discipline children. Keep in mind, discipline and punishment are different things.
    Thank you for reading this, and wishing you a peaceful, loving and wonderful marriage as I have had for more then 3 decades with my husband.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Thanks for your comment, Liz. We need more voices like yours to speak out against Domestic Discipline aka Domestic abuse. Congratulations on your loving, wonderful and long marriage.

      Like

    2. aronhusband

      Why take the chance on wife spanking?

      One could argue as your pastor does: Giving a timeout to your children is not specifically prohibited in the Bible, but why take the chance? Giving criminals jail time is not specifically prohibited in the Bible, but why take the chance? Bedtimes for children are not specifically prohibited in the Bible, but why take the chance?

      Your pastor has to offer up an argument like that because he is afraid of getting spanked. If he endorsed the practice, or were at least more favorable, he would likely get spanked (euphemistically of course) but fellow pastors, by his congregation, and if word got out, by the news media. He’s really not free to go much further than that. It is good however that he does not claim it is sin.

      The joy of marriage can indeed be fully realized if one spouse chastises another. Absolutely. God designed marriage for us and God gave one spouse authority, and made the other spouse subject to authority. So the joy of marriage is not fully realized in a lateral friendship, but in a vertical hierarchy, which includes love by both man and wife. Spanking does not take away either from the vertical pillar, or the mutual love, but rather brings them to fulfillment.

      If you think hard working women have nothing to be spanked for, you are looking for some excuse to malign the practice. Do hardworking people ever get fined by the state or go to jail? Do hardworking children ever get punished by their parents? Do hardworking employees ever get disciplined at work? Of course a hard working wife can get punished. A wife may be disrespectful. She may be irresponsible. She may place the children in danger. There are any number of things an otherwise virtuous woman may do to get in trouble. This ought to be common sense but you do not wish to see it because you area biased against marital discipline.

      Moreover, there is no conflict between praise and discipline. A husband can regularly praise his wife and be grateful for her, as he should, and at the same time manage her behavior with verbal correction and discipline. These two things are in harmony, and naturally go together in marriage. The husband would be shirking his duties if he did not correct his wife for bad behavior. He is the head of the home at that responsibility comes along with being a husband.

      A woman should prepare for a life as wife and mother, unless she has a real calling to be celibate for the ministry. We have men to be professors, and do not need women to do so. While women are out fulfilling the selfish desires of the heart, and making much money, we lose families and homes, and children for our future. If your pastor were “biblical” he should have had a talk with you about your lifestyle as well. It seems natural that if you ignore the husband’s real authority in the home, you also ignore the role of the woman, in bearing children and keeping the home. That is valuable beyond measure, and worth more than any salary in the world.

      Spanking is good for children. It is mandated by Scripture, so we know we should use it. Studies which claim otherwise are wrong, and fail to distinguish between discipline and any other uses of force. Those studies are a joke. The fact is, when children were spanked much more often, nearly universally both in schools and at home, they were better behaved, learned better in school, were not on so many illegal drugs or psychiatric ones, committed fewer crimes, and committed suicide less often. School teachers had much less trouble teaching them or managing their behavior. Spanking should be used for children both at home and in school.

      I am happy to say not only have I seen the readership of my marriage website greatly increase, as it continues to increase in recent weeks, but also that I have worked with many couples to start discipline in their marriages. I have also helped men and women plan for a coming marriage to include discipline. There is no solid authority without the ability to use discipline, as authority can be ignored at any times without it. Discipline should be on the table in any marriage, and would be helpful in nearly all. The horror stories of marriages which self destruct because of a battle of wills, and female insubordination are all around and I have seen them personally myself. A discipline system eradicates most of these problems, and brings beautiful peace.

      Like

      1. Joanna

        In response to Aronhusband’s response to me (it won’t let me reply where I should).

        Why are you here? Seriously, what gives you the audacity to try to continue to force a point that none of the women here agrees with? Why do you feel compelled to force yourself into a woman’s space and tell us we’re wrong at every turn? We see it as abusive. You don’t want it framed that way. Okay. That is it. Much as I wish I could somehow change things for the benefit of your wife and daughters, I cannot, and similarly, nothing you could ever say defending your mindset would convince me to subject myself to that kind of life. It’s the last thing I would wish for myself, my loved ones, or really any woman out there. We are not your wife or daughters; you cannot browbeat us or just literally beat us until we say what you want us to say (and in a suitably servile tone). So why don’t you leave it?

        Go and do some good to your family. Your wife, from what you have described, seems to never have a moment’s rest, from taking care of five children, to educating them, to cooking, to cleaning, to running errands, to doing the drudge-work you don’t want to do/assisting you, to sleeping with you, to remembering to praise you and make you feel like a King/Christlike. While her husband leaves rambling, chiding, ultimately pointless comments on women’s blogs, I doubt she gets any time for fun, development/fulfilment in the way of hobbies (things that are done just for the benefit of *her*, and not you) or even just relaxation. Why don’t you look after your children, so that she can have a day out with friends? Why don’t you get off here and go and do the washing, or the dishes? Why don’t you go and do some actual *good* for your wife and family?

        I am not married, and would never marry a man who saw me as a subject/subordinate. If I marry, it will be a marriage of mutual respect, love, appreciation, effort and trust, one of two adults coming together for the benefit of the other. I do not wish to shrink myself to make a man feel big. Thankfully, I see many couples that I view as inspirational, so I don’t have too many concerns. But if the option were between being single and acting like second-class citizen in what is supposed to be a happy union, then I would stay single.

        Women aren’t children. Women are physically weaker (strength, speed, size), though even there we have unique strengths. Women are not intellectually, morally or emotionally weaker than men, not by any stretch of the imagination. Start respecting women more, and stop infantilising us as child-adjacent and in need of control.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. aronhusband

        Why are you here? Why do you continue to try and argue a point you cannot defend? Why do you continue to make accusations which have no basis? Why do you feel compelled to force your belief system on me, when I never asked you what you thought?

        I am here to explain about discipline in marriage, and to defend against those who wrongly malign it. The truth should be known, and many people have changed their minds on this topic when they dropped their preconceptions and viewed things fairly. It is a valuable practice and more couples ought to use it.

        You may view it as abusive, but you are wrong. You also endorse things far harsher and more severe than a simple spanking, so you ought to see how wrong your accusations of abuse are. They are more easily made against other practices, including those which you endorse. According to Almighty God, divorce is bloody violence, we must not practice it, and remarriage is adultery. There is an actual matter of right and wrong for you. There is an objective matter, which people really need to change their behavior about, because they are sinning.

        Since you have no ability to show that wife spanking is wrong, you choose instead to exercise your psychic powers, and explain how my wife must get no fun in life, and have no time at all with me. That’s wrong. We have regular time together. She has godly fellowship with the ladies in the church which is rewarding to her, and we have home worship, Bible reading, songs, and games. We have a joyous household. It is work, and it is time consuming, but that ought to be true of every single household. Marriage is not a long romantic getaway, but is a unity for the sake of bringing forth children, and witnessing to Jesus Christ. My work online is a ministry, and it has helped many people. I plan to continue, despite your negative opinions. It has reached many for the good. Thanks to God.

        Women are weaker both in body and in their mind. They need the man’s strength. They may not literally be children, but they are more easily deceived by the devil while the man is not. Women are nourished by their man’s authority over them, and their man’s guidance and protection. God has put men over women for a great reason, and absolutely nothing you can say, in your angry rebellion, will change that. You need to accept man’s headship and be his gentle helper. That is the word of the Lord.

        Like

      3. mmclainss

        1 Peter 3:7

        “you husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her on our a fellow air of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.”

        That may be a reason that you should be much more careful about beating your wife, than putting your children to bed, or giving them a time out. The fact that you compare those actions, shows in itself how little regard you give this verse. My husband has said he cannot imagine a scarier verse than this. To be in a position where God does not hear your prayers.

        Like

      4. aronhusband

        There is no objection to wife spanking in 1 Peter 3:7. You have to imagine it’s in there, because you lack any support from the Bible. Loving discipline is well in line with understanding and with respecting the wife as the weaker vessel. It doesn’t break her. It helps her, and in the long run builds her up. It recognizes her weakness, and helps lead her out of bad behavior, which will harm her and others.

        That is the loving purpose of discipline, fulfilled with a wife, or with anyone else. Children are pretty “weak” too, but we are commanded to discipline them, and would be irresponsible if we did not.

        The following passage was not written by some monster to fear, but given to us by the Holy Spirit:

        And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

        “My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
        Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;

        For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
        And scourges every son whom He receives.”

        If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?

        But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

        Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?

        For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness.

        Hebrews 12:5-10

        Like

  13. Liz

    Thank you. Three things I forgot to mention-
    – it is claimed That men are HoH on these websites, but if the husbands choose not to punish their wives they are weak.
    – Where are these mouthy, disobedient, disrespectful women? I’m on a college campus for 30 years , never met them.
    I showed my colleague, who is a woman born and raised in India until she and her husband came to the US, a couple of articles on the website about discipline in India. She in turn showed it to her in-laws and her parents. While she confirms divorce is very low in India and Indian wives revere their parents and their in-laws, she said the punishment thing is totally inappropriate and exaggerated and that, like here in the US , more young women are getting college educated and fewer young men in India (not something that’s a good thing, by the way, we would like to have the number of men and women educated be more equal) , and her in-laws never disrespect or correct her for not doing something perfectly, but rather praise her constantly for all she does for them. Her father-in-law was particularly angry that this man physically harmed his wife. And her in-laws and her parents are in their 70s so they’ve been in lifelong marriages for 50 years or more. .
    Thanks, Liz

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Thanks for sharing this, Liz. A marriage should be about love and respect. Differences, disagreements can be addressed/ironed out without resorting to violence on the husband’s part. I wonder how many women leave these types of marriages. One woman said in a Daily Beast article: ‘I wanted the spankings to stop and my husband told me it was either DD and marriage or divorce. I chose divorce. I couldn’t handle the pain of spankings anymore, emotionally or physically.’ I think of the children and how this must affect them. Will boys grow up thinking it’s okay for the man to spank his wife and will the girls grow up believing that it’s okay for her husband to spank her when she does something he doesn’t like? What kind of distorted view are they going to have of marriage? There are so many happy and long lasting marriages in which the couples never practiced domestic discipline. Spanking his wife doesn’t make the man strong. It makes him a brute who is abusing his authority.

      Like

      1. Joanna

        I would imagine that quite a few Christian marriages are terminated as a result of men who purport to be Godly men mistreating their wives (not necessarily always through physical abuse), but in other ways. There are some of these women who no doubt remain in marriage too, out of fear or having being ‘softened and molded’ by their husbands to the point that they believe they are unworthy of being treated decently.

        As you can see from the man who inserts his heinous beliefs into our conversation here, abusers can’t be reasoned with. They want to control and hurt women, and they warp scripture to justify it. It’s disgraceful, and domestic abuse needs to be addressed more in the church.

        Like

  14. Liz

    I wonder too. My pastor says he knows couples (from a former church where he was a pastor before moving to our area) who have ceased using DD and their marriages have healed. He feels DD peaked around 2013 and is really on the decline. I hope he is correct.
    It seems in the case of the spank your wife website , the author became a Christian and he found a wife who he explained discipline to and she agreed. I hope sons and daughters of these couples, when they are adults, can choose, like their parents did, and can choose however they want to live their adult lives, including without DD. From some commenters on another site,( the one I mentioned earlier , Christian domestic discipline life) the man said he allows his teenage sons to spank their mother to practice for when they are married. Truly truly disgusting ! That man should be locked up and the key thrown out . And that guy follows the Bible- what happened to honor thy father and thy mother?
    Thanks for the fruitful discussion.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. That’s good if DD is on the decline. I was appalled when I read your comment about the father and the teenage sons. It is truly disgusting. I have written another story about Domestic Discipline which will be posted on July 25, so drop by again then. Thanks for the fruitful discussion, Liz. Keep speaking out against DD.

      Like

  15. Liz

    I would like to echo Joanna’s recent post, although I might approach it a bit differently. Firstly, I will not assume your wife has no time to herself. She does sound very busy, but I know it doesn’t take much, a parkbench with a favorite book, a beverage for an hour at a local favorite coffee shop, a walk in the local park, are all needed for every human being, especially a husband or wife. I only say that because, presumably, single men and women perhaps have more time naturally for themselves. But, especially a wife who cares for the home and family, needs that down time to recharge. Hoepfully your wife has regular time to herself to help recharge.
    Secondly, the bible was written thousands of years ago and not in a modern language. So hermenuetics would dictate translations are not exact. For example many consider the “rod” interpreted by the bible as corporal punishment, could be the shepard’s rod of guarding, protecting, bringing along, if you will. So there is a discrepancy as to the true meaning of the rod, but children need to grow to show love, respect and kindess, that is universal.
    Since wife punishment is not mandated by the bible, but wifely submission is, that can be done without punishment. That is how many of us on our forum chose to live with our husbands.
    Since you have a forum where you told us readership is up and you help many couples, than that is where your main interest lies. Prior to your site, due to the style of your writing and accounting of your spankings, I believe your were “Dave” on christian domestic discipline life and domestic submission by constance and “Tom” on the biblical gender roles site. So you have many ways to express your way of life and reach people who agree with you.
    We here do not agree with chastisement in any form of the wife, but rely on mutual discussion, mercy and forgiveness. And this is how my husband leads my marriage, and it had been long and wonderful. I hope the Lord gives us many more years together. So yes, as we will not convince you otherwise no matter what we say, respectfully and gently, I say you will not convince us either.
    I don’t know how it can said that wife spanking is practiced by millions, is mostly in private (at least in the west) and misuse of authority is rare. Even if misuse is rare, let us say 5%- is that a rare enough occurance? That would be 50,000 women out of 1,000,000 who suffer from their husband’s misuse authority. Even 1 % is 10,000 women out of 1,000,000 and your site indicates “millions” practice wife spanking, so that number is likely much larger. I am sure as you write that perhaps you have helped some men step down from a misuse of authority, but that is likely a small number, since, as you say, it is done largely in private. So unless a wife asks for help, she is indeed suffering in silence. The analogies that government misues authority or other authorities but we still follow them is not a good analogy, you should be wanting not one single wife to get permanent harm from spanking. We are not in government and do have that authority and therefore cannot always change what we do, but every man in his home can treat his wife with respect, dignity and love and from fear of harm, and every man should want to ensure as much as humanly possible that not one woman (NOT one) is harmed by spanking. I also wonder how many women appear submissive out of fear of punishment? I suspect it is a large number too, although I have no more evidence of that than you do of misuse of authority being rare.
    Thank you. for reading this.

    Like

    1. aronhusband

      Yes. The Bible was indeed written in a different language, and that is why we have translations, as well as concordances. The term rod can be used commonly to refer to physical discipline, and that would have been the ordinary understanding at the time. It could also be used euphemistically to speak of a harsh form of punishment, but not necessarily a literal rod. However, in that day, a rod would have been normal for punishing a child or adult. The word for scourge also refers to a literal whip, but can be used in a euphemistic way as well, referring to a harsh punishment. The Bible endorses corporal punishment multiple times, in ordinary language that the people of the day would have understood to mean corporal punishment. This is true regarding slaves, criminals, and children. Corporal punishment is either accepted or mandated, depending on the circumstances. So there is no way to say it is essentially wrong. God teaches it, so it is not wrong.

      The Bible also teaches harsh divine judgment by God, as well as by Jesus Christ. Divine judgment is harsh from start to finish of the Bible, and includes illness, death, destruction of entire cities, slaughter, rapine, and of course an end in hell for those who are unbelieving and sinners. God, being a God of love, clearly finds love is not in conflict with harsh punishment. Jesus promises to scourge His children. His scourge is often harsher than a simple spanking.

      I do not mean to convince you that you have to use spanking in your marriage. However, you ought to know that you are wrong to accuse others of being unChristian, unloving, sinful, or abusive for using spanking. It is an acceptable form of punishment according to the Almighty, and has demonstrated itself as helpful in countless marriages. If you do fine without it, wonderful. Many marriages do fine with it, and are happy and fruitful relationships, which include correction when necessary.

      Your argument against possible misuse is very poor. The justice system can and will be misused, but we still need it. We have laws, we have law enforcement, we have police, and we have penalties. There may be 5% who are mistreated by this system (or more) so if your logic is correct it’s just not worth the risk. We’d have to have a society with no governmental authority and no laws.

      Moreover, the concept of love is greatly misused. In countless marriages love is treated as mere romanticism, it is treated as a mere friendship between spouses, it is treated as a tolerance of bad behavior. All of this to the detriment of marriage or the spouses. Love itself is misused many times more than 5% of the time, but we’re not all about to get rid of love, are we? The rare possible misuse, logically, does not mean a thing is not valuable. It is valuable, and has shown itself to be.

      The man has the authority, the right and responsibility to correct his wife. He has every right to use spanking if that is what he finds best. This is an issue of authority more than an issue of mode of discipline. You recognize that other authorities in life can discipline those under them, but then you change your standards radically, and reject discipline by the husband. All that does is reject his authority. That is what you are at war with. You attack the man’s authority.

      Yes, we only have one wife, and we are responsible for her betterment and protection. Discipline is a part of that process, and the very small risk of harm does not change the good it does overall. Countless other things have a small risk of harm that you fully accept. So cease changing your standards.

      Apparently the Almighty does not follow your line of argument either. For God endorses the use of the whip, despite the fact there were surely misuses back then as there are now. It could have been misused on a child, but it is still a divinely taught form of punishment. So your risk assessment (which is itself inconsistent with other risks you accept) is a far lower form of revelation than Holy Scripture.

      What’s worse than a rare possible misuse of spanking is a wife’s disrespect. What’s worse than a rare possible misuse of spanking is a wife who is independent or prideful. What’s worse than a rare possible misuse of spanking is a wife who is irresponsible, misused funds, neglects the children, gender bends, or acts lewdly. All of these things are much more of a concern than a rare unjust spanking, and they are exactly what spanking takes care of very well. Discipline helps keep a wife in line, and prevents harm in marriage from many angles. It helps a wife grow as a good woman and a productive wife. It aids in household peace.

      Like

  16. Joanna

    I would imagine that quite a few Christian marriages are terminated as a result of men who purport to be Godly men mistreating their wives (not necessarily always through physical abuse), but in other ways. There are some of these women who no doubt remain in marriage too, out of fear or having being ‘softened and molded’ by their husbands to the point that they believe they are unworthy of being treated decently.

    As you can see from the man who inserts his heinous beliefs into our conversation here, abusers can’t be reasoned with. They want to control and hurt women, and they warp scripture to justify it. It’s disgraceful, and domestic abuse needs to be addressed more in the church.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. I agree with you, Joanna. Domestic Discipline needs to be addressed more in the church. Abuse isn’t always physical–but the other types such as emotional, verbal, psychological can be more damaging. My honest belief is that the devil has blinded the men who use God’s Word to justify what they are doing to their wives in the name of love. No attempts to open their eyes or to reason with them will succeed. Only God can open their eyes. We can continue to raise awareness and to pray for the women who are in these types of marriages.

      Like

    2. aronhusband

      I would imagine an abundance of Christian marriages are torn asunder as a result of women, who purport to be godly women, but who will not care for the home, are disrespectful, disobedient, independent, and abusive. The incredible rise in divorce came hand in hand with feminism and female independence, not the other way around. At a time when many more men would have disciplined their wives, there was far less divorce, and many more children for our future. So quite the opposite of what you claim.

      As you can see from the woman who cannot defend her opinion here, feminists can’t be reasoned with. You have had countless chances, both you and others, to show that spanking a wife is wrong, and you have failed. That’s because it is not wrong.

      Some things that are actually wrong are: judging a brother rashly, like you are doing, making your opinion into a dogma, like you are doing, and divorcing your spouse and marrying another. THERE are some heinous things for you, but you either do them, or endorse them yourself.

      Be honest with yourself. If you cannot show it is wrong, stop claiming it is. Realize that you yourself endorse what is objectively wrong, according to Holy Scripture.

      Hypocrite.

      Like

    3. mmclainss

      I would be afraid to run into this man in a dark alley somewhere. He sounds like a sadistic serial killer in the making. The way he enjoys abusing his wife, and the way he encourages others to as well. The way that he defends the “right” to get turned on by her suffering, and even encourages men to make her perform oral sex on him at the end… I can’t even…What Bible is he reading? How is this loving his wife as Christ loved the church…. The Christ who washed others feet, the Christ who served others, and taught that those in authority should do the same. The Christ who literally took his bride’s punishment onto himself so we wouldn’t have to bear it? I pray with all my heart that his poor wife will one day be rescued from him.

      Like

      1. aronhusband

        That is a truly insulting, ignorant, and just silly set of remarks. “Afraid to meet in a dark alley.” Are you kidding? Countless happy, peaceful, and loving marriages include discipline, and that discipline aids and nourishes the marital union. It helps bring peace to the household, peace which in many instances would be unknown otherwise.

        As I have pointed out multiple times above, people such as yourself accept very significant use of violence, and very significant risks to mental and physical health. You accept the violent act of divorce, which is well documented to harm leaves (men are much more likely to commit suicide after divorce but that won’t change your mind); you accept the violence of the state used to force a man to give a woman money, even if the woman just left him for another man, and tole his children, you accept the violence of the state to throw people into even more violent prisons, where harms of all kind, and suicide is exponentially more likely to occur. To accept all that and more, and then be terrified of a man who spanks his wife’s bare bottom for a few minutes, is just madness.

        Drop some of your preconceptions and you will see that. You are overflowing with irrationality here, as is anyone who tries to pain wife spanking is severely dangerous or sinful. If you had a basis to make those claims, as I say above, someone would have been able to prove it in the many thousands of words above, but there is nothing close to proof at all.

        The people you need to fear meeting in a dark alley are mostly, the children of fornication. The children of broken homes, the children of the societal chaos wrought by feminism and the lack of fathers. Those are the people you need to fear, and it was not a few spankings which created that problem. You need to reevaluate everything.

        Like

      2. Joanna

        So would I. He is unhinged. It’s very clear that he does not view women as people, but merely dolls to prod and pinch and push to centre our lives around serving and pleasing egotistical abusive men.

        Can’t imagine being married to someone like this. Having to pretend to be lesser than your husband to avoid a beating or being isolated from yet another friend. A few of us have reported his heinous site to a couple of places for inciting violence toward women and advocating for male supremacy.

        Some positive facts as things have got pretty grim here:

        77% of prime aged American women (considered to be 25-54 for employment) are working. This is the highest it’s ever been, and a stronger bounce back from lockdown than they were predicting. 84% of those women work full-time. The wage gap is narrowing, especially for people in their 20s. (In the UK it’s even higher.)

        A third of all bosses are women, and it seems there are no signs of this slowing down, let alone reversing.

        Women have more opportunity to education than ever, and are thriving at school and university.

        40% of women earn as much or more than their spouse, and the percentage of male breadwinners is notably reduced compared to decades ago.

        Obviously educated and employed/financially secure women can still fall victim to abusive men/men who need women to shrink ourselves to feel good about themselves, but the means to escape is much reachable with the changes made in the past 60 years. The increasing number of battered women’s shelters have saved countless lives.

        Onwards and upwards. No women should have to be saddled with a man like this in 2024. Our grandmothers/greatgrandmothers didn’t fight for nothing.

        Like

      3. aronhusband

        You are lost in your own delusions. Couples who use spanking in marriage are often happily married, and have a home characterized by love, peace, and harmony. That’s just how our marriage functions, as do many others in which discipline is naturally used by the authority.

        You are following your own dogmas, which have been instilled into you for many years, and prefer to live in a world in which women are unable to make choices to submit to authority, and in which women are perpetual victims. In doing so, you ignore the ways in which egalitarianism and feminism cause violence, slavery, and destruction. You ignore the violent homes which stem from a lack of real authority, containing real dangerous violence, in which no one has ever been meaningfully in charge. You ignore the divorces which have come along with feminism and a disrespect for the man’s authority, and which are documented to cause harm for generations down the line. You ignore the incredible rise in crime and violence by women, which came along with egalitarianism and so-called women’s liberation. You also ignore the injustices done to men, a state which locks them up, and which takes away their money and their children, favoring the woman the large majority of the time when a divorce or separation occurs.

        Like others, you pretend moral outrage at a simple spanking, and yet you accept punishments which are a thousand times worse. You accept prison time, despite the fact prison includes immeasurably high rates of assault, and immeasurably high rates of rape. If one accept that as a form of discipline, one is false and a hypocritical to reject a simply spanking over the knee, which lasts a few minutes, and may leave a lady sore for a couple of days. One who accepts something exponentially more destructive than a spanking cannot with any credibility complain about spanking.

        We have a very happy marriage with children who are happy, virtuous, and peaceful. A part of that comes from the authority structure we have, and is aided by the use of discipline when needed. My wife respects me, and she does her job as a wife and mother very well. We both do what the Scripture teaches us to do, and fulfill our responsibilities to our spouse.

        If you find that scary, you are truly living your life in a delusion.

        Like

      4. Joanna

        TW: domestic abuse of women, rape and female degradation

        A passage on an article of Aron/Tom/Dave’s about ‘consent’:

        ‘It obliterates their concepts of equality, and often of female superiority. The morally superior, wise, more peaceful being is being totally put to shame in their eyes. She shouts about her rights, but her rights are nowhere to be seen as she is placed laying over a man’s lap, and given the strap over and over. Her only rights at the moment are to be a good wife, to repent, and behave better in the future. Her empowerment is in seconds dissolved, as she is made to kneel, honor her man as sir or lord, and punished firmly by her husband. She comes to tears. She bawls — “I’m sorry sir, I’ll be good. I belong completely to you.” Her illusion of sexual autonomy is dispelled, as her flesh and her intimate places are on full display as she is chastised, and as she later is enjoyed by her man for sexual pleasure, often for his own enjoyment. He takes her as he pleases. She is nowhere independent, but is led by rules, is guided with oversight, needs to ask her man’s permission, and is spanked for stepping out of line. Pretty much all their illusions are shattered in a traditional marriage, and then melted to oblivion in the discipline of wives.’

        In a response to a comment where a woman points out the very real issue of Church leaders being useless when it comes to men abusing their wives, Aron responds:

        ‘People stay married for life, and fulfill their roles as man and wife, despite the sins of their spouse. One only leaves out of serious threat to human life. Similarly one would only go to the police if there is immediate threat to life. Getting the law involved ruins people’s lives and ruins people’s families. Then the law typically stays involved, and intentionally keeps families separate for years. Do. Not. Do. It. If you had a fight, go calm down, and deal with it more lovingly later. Keep the authorities OUT of it.’

        I feel sick even copying that, but this man’s misogyny and danger to women needs to be seen to fully be understood. His daughters aren’t safe with him. He’s a vile predator.

        Like

      5. aronhusband

        You are lost in your own fantasy world, Joanna. You have nothing insightful to add to the topic. You have just decided some people are demons, and they are demons because you said so. You label normal, loving discipline as “abuse,” when you yourself accept and endorse much more violent and harmful discipline from the state. You just demand something is evil because you, Joanna, said so. 

        But that’s not how things work. You actually have to show something is wrong, and you have not shown it to be wrong. You’ve just raised your rhetorical voice and done a lot of condemning. 

        Wife spanking is normal, and is practiced in millions of loving, peaceful marriages. Many of those marriages are more stable and long-lasting than others. Discipline is part of an entire order of things which works, which establishes marriage as lifelong, loving, life-producing, and virtuous. When done the way it’s supposed to be done, you simply have good and happy marriages, as it was meant to be. 

        The fact that a bottom sometimes gets spanked doesn’t change that at all. It’s short lived. The pain is short lived. Then things get back to normal, and behavior is improved. What you are labeling evil, is actually very good. God endorses corporal punishment multiple times in the Bible, so while it certainly can be done in a wrong fashion, it cannot be said to be wrong in itself. 

        More marriages could use corporal punishment as a tool, and it would improve them. I know that. That’s why I teach it, and that’s why I will continue. I believe in the good of marriage and I am committed in my mind and soul to helping marriages. That is the fabric of human society. I am not going to sit by while liberals trash marriage. I will work without ceasing to strengthen it.

        Like

  17. Joanna

    Above is a link to a Reddit post where a daughter posts a letter her mother received from their Church, ejecting her for disobeying them by not going back to her deeply abusive husband. Apparently, both the mother and the two daughters are being hounded by church elders because the mother will not go back to the marital home to be further mistreated by the abuser the church has chosen to defend.

    My heart goes out to these women, but looking at the comments, this seems to be far from an uncommon experience for church-going women and girls. There are numerous deeply upsetting accounts of women and girls being beaten sexually assaulted by men in the Church (husbands, fathers, brothers, [youth] pastors and elders) and either having it ignored, being told to endure and be silent or even being told that it is their fault.

    I imagine that the passionate defenders of wife-beating/domestic discipline who advocate for an abused woman – rather than going to the police and a shelter to get real justice and sanctuary – to ask fellow men at their church to solve things, would operate as the man did in the letter.

    I wonder how these Christians who are turning their back on suffering women can reconcile the idea in their minds of men being both a) the natural leaders due to their rationality vs emotionalism/impulses and b) people who are to be quickly forgiven for being easily deceived/lured by women and little girls and ‘tricked’ into sin/losing control.

    How are they more emotionally strong/stoic, if they are expected to endure far less hardship than women? How are they natural leaders due to ‘superior abilities’, yet so many of their failings/sins/crimes are quickly justified with ‘he’s only human/he was led astray.’ Where is the accountability?

    This is not an attack of faith, but merely the hypocrisy and corruption that the church is riddled with. This leaves women unsafe. This is why women are leaving.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Thanks for sharing the link to a Reddit post. I was appalled when I read about the daughter’s letter about her mother and the church. It reminded me of a movie where the priest was encouraging a woman to stay with her abusive husband. How could they want anyone to remain in an environment in which they are not safe? The abused woman needs help/support/protection not to be told to remain where she’s in danger. That doesn’t make sense and it isn’t the sort of advice God-fearing people would even contemplate, let alone encourage. Shame on that church for what they did to that poor woman. They had the audacity to say that her actions demonstrated that she is a person lacking saving faith–what about her husband? Where was his saving faith when he was abusing her? Would it have been better if she had remained in the marriage and ended up being beaten to death? What about him coming to his senses and a change of heart on his part? He abused her–when the Bible teaches in Ephesians 5:28, 29: So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. This church has failed the abused woman by treating her like she’s the one who has done wrong and not holding the husband, the abuser accountable for his actions. That church wasn’t a true church because it didn’t have the Spirit of God in it or the love of Jesus. She’s better off not being a member of it any longer and she did the right thing in leaving an abusive marriage. God will take care of her.

      Like

    2. aronhusband

      Your heart needs to go out to ALL mankind, and not just women, who play up a victimhood status that they do not deserve. Women initiate the large majority of divorces, which are documented to be harmful, including harmful to children. God calls divorce an act of bloodshed and forbids it.

      70% of unreciprocated domestic assaults are by women. The large majority of child deaths, including murders, are at the female’s home, with her and her “partner” responsible. You should not presume women to be victims. They are frequently perpetrators. That is to say nothing of the immense number of children killed in the womb each year, with the mother as the main instigator of the abortion. Does murder count as abuse?

      You also cannot make sense of human relationships when you throw around the word “abuse” about every human behavior you do not like. It is an endlessly flexible word today, and would include a bar brawl, legitimate domestic discipline, general meanness, control of the household, control of the finances, and being critical. It is simply a weaponized word used whenever one wants to attack marriage. However, since the word is so flexible, we need to extend it to cover a wife’s disobedience to her husband, her refusal of marital intimacy, her criticism of her husband, as well as her disrespect. All of those things then are abuse,  and cause harm to a marriage, and a household. They are perpetrated by women, and it is a husband’s right to correct her.

      A person who commits some form of what the world labels “abuse” is not to be endlessly shunned, and treated as unforgiven.Even if it really amounts to unjust violence, like any other sin, it can be forgiven, and full reconciliation is possible. You want to treat it as the worst of sins because it benefits your feminism, which is your worldview. It allows you to put marriages asunder, encourage the violence of divorce, encourage women not to submit to their husbands, and generally play up your favored group as a beloved victim, and men as your dangerous enemy.

      As I have pointed out before, the exact opposite is true. Because feminism has destroyed the family, you have created MORE and not less violence. Breaking up homes creates violence, including in the children. Sexually “liberated” women created violence through the abortions they commit and the children they bear outside of wedlock. Feminism has created much more violence BY women against others than had existed before. It much increased domestic violence by women perpetrated towards men. Somehow you leave that out. In fact many of the violent thugs who wait to beat, rape, and murder women are from the broken homes or the lifestyle fornication that came with modernism and liberated women. So you can go on dreamily about abuse and how horrible it is, while all the while refusing to look yourself in the mirror, whose ideology is the real perpetrator of violence, on men, women, and society.

      Why pretend to care about the church when you don’t even believe what the Bible teaches? Men are our leaders, both according to God, and nature. They built human civilization and women and children were much safer in the era when marriages lasted, and the Christian values you hate pervaded much of society. Strong men are good for women. Feminism is a usurper, and brings evil on mankind.

      Like

      1. Joanna

        You cannot be reasoned with. You act as if the vast majority of men are protective, benevolent figures when it comes to women, and insist on your opinion being right even when billions of women and girls across the globe have evidence to the contrary. When women had fewer rights and when women women were under the authority and the ‘protection’ of men, the men failed to actually protect many women and girls. They were eager to test out the fun power part of the deal, but much of their ‘protection’ went to male perpetrators, in the sense of monstrous husbands, fathers and brothers, victim-blaming and saying ‘boys will be boys’, and through a constant barrage of physical threats and abuse to women, societal infantilisation, legally treating women like chattel, etc. Women were not ‘better protected/safer/happier’; they were just pushed down and silenced.

        But then you lack the empathy to step outside of ‘man as main character and only person of real importance’ to actually have *any* compassion or understanding for women, the 50% of the population you believe you know what’s best for better than we do ourselves.

        Considering your frankly wild definitions of what constitutes male and female abuse (female = daring to speak up for herself/defend herself/say no to a sex act/not cater to the man enough/male abuse = ?? I genuinely don’t know what you consider abuse. A broken arm? A scalded face? Removing an eye? ) Nothing seems too extreme to prevent a woman from ‘performing her Godly wifely duty’ and reconciling, despite how much the man may have absolutely destroyed her as a person.

        Interestingly, for a man who frequently speaks to legal justice/criminals receiving justice for crimes as a reasonable comparison to husbands beating their wives due to being displeased, you actually advocate for battered wives not to go to the police. The husband who kicks his wife, or punches her, or drags her about the floor by her hair, is a criminal, according to the law, yet you dislike the idea of justice being properly served in that particular instance.

        You strike me as the sort of person who calls a woman neurotic/hysterical for fearing sexual aggression/stalking/violence from a man who asks her out/a stranger who approaches her out of interest, yet when men say they fear being falsely accused/secretely filmed and humiliated, you consider it a valid concern and pity them.

        This is probably it in terms of communicating with you (though not with speaking out against abuse on this website). Your beliefs and reprehensible, and I’m convinced you are a sociopath.

        What you have admitted subjecting your wife to (or advocated in general for men/featured and not condemned).

        Violence against women: beating, ear pulling, face slapping, hair pulling, etc

        Sexual assault/rape: anal sex against her will (you recognise the pain, violation and danger that can come with it, but still advocate for women not making a fuss.) You speculate that ‘many men’ specifically are drawn to this act out of the thrill of ‘hurting women’, yet still claim that men are the ‘natural protectors’ of women. You seem to view marital rape as an oxymoron, which is sickening. Also your entitlement when it relates to ‘sexual submission’ reveals that you view sex as something that is done to break a woman down/break her down/leave her a hollow but docile body for your ‘use’.

        Extreme control: her friends, who she speaks to, what she speaks about, the volume of her voice, the words she uses, her entertainment, her clothes, what she does with and what is done to her body and most other things.

        Humilation/degradation – your obsession with ‘humbling’ women and making sure they are servile, self-sacrificing, self-effacing and endlessly forgiving.

        Financial abuse

        You are an abuser hiding behind the mask of Christianity. If you fear Hell, know that you belong there.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. aronhusband

        You say “you cannot be reasoned with” because you are unable to use reason very well at all.

        That’s the problem. You don’t care what the facts are. You are completely unable to defend your claim that spanking is wrong. So because you can’t use reason very well, you claim the deficiency is on my part. It is not. You just cannot prove your case.

        You have: feelings, feelings, feelings

        Women, women, women

        Abuse, abuse, abuse

        Me, me, me, me, me, me, me, ma

        These things are not a basis for a worldview but at the end of the day are just your overflow of thoughts. Your worldview is based on your feelings and your desires, and that is a totally faulty basis for a worldview.
        Other people exist besides women. Other people have feelings besides women. Other people suffer cruelty besides women. There are higher principles, including the Word of God, that completely trump a woman’s feelings. You have to grasp these things.

        Your feelings are not reality.

        You claim that it is wrong for men to assert they are the leaders in part because they are more rational, but then you prove your opponent’s case by behaving irrationally yourself, and do so continually.

        You also simply have your facts wrong. When men were clearly, and legally the heads in this culture, women were much better off and more well protected. They were much more likely to be provided for, and to be cared for for life. Moreover, women did far less violence, far less crime, far less divorce, far less abortion, far less abuse of their husbands, than they do now. They were far less likely to force a man to give up his money and his children. You simply ignore ALL of this to repeat your assertions, as if it did not exist.

        You ignore the great harm caused by feminism, only to pretend women are the victims. Women are the perpetrators, and feminism and independence has made them much more the perpetrators.

        God has a right path for women, and He says so. That path is under the authority of the man. That path is in the home, caring for the children, That path is a gentle and quiet spirit. It is femininity and meekness. All of these things are essentially a part of a woman’s life, but feminists rob her of this, and make her more unhappy, more at risk, and barren. They destroy marriages, and assure we do not even have enough children for our future. God’s way is right for us, and absolutely nothing you can say will change that. God is our ultimate authority. These truths are in Holy Scripture, and they are confirmed in our differing biologies and souls, our differing strengths and weaknesses.

        Women are less protected today, as is all of society, through the scourge of violence, which has been part and parcel of broken homes. The ill raised children of modernism are out there brutalizing women, raping them, and killing them, yet if God’s order were at play they would be raised in a stable home, with father and mother to teach them.

        Your reply, while wordy, contains ZERO refutation of what I have said. It contains zero evidence that it is wrong for a man to either lead or discipline his wife. You continually use “abuse” as a curse word, without actually proving what you define as abuse is wrong. Being the leader is not “abuse” but rather is a normal and righteous thing to do. The use of discipline is itself normative to authority, and there is nothing wrong with it.

        YOU are the abuser. You malign. You wrongly accuse. You berate. You replace God’s teachings with your own words. You support ripping apart families. You support taking a husband’s money and his children. You support feminism, which has greatly increased female violence. You are in no position to call anyone else an abuser.

        You have the gall to pretend the Bible is on your side, all the while committing or supporting what the Bible actually defines as sin. It never defines spanking as sin, but it does define what you support and what you do as sin. You do not care what God teaches at all. Stop pretending that you do.

        You need to change your faith. Your faith needs to STOP being in humankind (heavily weighted towards your feelings and towards females) and start being in God. You need to place your trust in the One who makes us, and who delivers us from sin, if we repent, and trust in His Son. You need to believe every word that comes from the mouth of the Holy One. You need to realize man does not define truth, but God does — the revelation of the Bible first, and reason second. That is where truth flows from, not from your contentious and confused heart, nor from your culture, which has programmed you to believe in the dogma of feminism. What you trust as sources of authority are faulty sources. What you believe is true, is not. Trust in God and in His Son.

        The simple fact you and others have had many thousands of words to show that spanking is wrong, and are completely unable, should cue you in to the fact you are standing on shifting sand.

        Find a new, and better authority than you have. That is God, and the authorities he places on this earth are men.

        Like

  18. Liz

    To our author at Notes to Women: I want to thank you for allowing this somewhat heated discussion to continue. I know that many of the DD/CDD forums, the authors do not allow long debates or many controversial comments (as is their right and yours to accept or reject comments and debates as they and you see fit), but you have allowed the comments from both sides to continue. You certainly did not have to do so, you could have blocked any of our comments, So again, I thank you for that.
    As I mentioned earlier in this post I am science professor. I have a network of over 1,000 male and female science faculty members in all 50 US states and in other countries. They report as I did, most of their students are women today, and they are hardworking, talented and respectful and lovely people. It is interesting, I find my women students very respectful always, but the young men not always. One young man in my class once told me he did not like having a woman professor. So I asked him why he signed up for my section, since it was any introductory course, there were many sections of the same course, many taught by men. He said he thought as a woman, I would be an easier grader. Hah, did he get a surprise 🙂
    So my male and female colleagues around the US and the world will nurture these young women scientists to have the lives they truly imagined, along side their talented and hardworking male fellow students. And they will have every opportunity to have a wonderful, lifelong marriage as well, as I and many others have had. I will continue to counsel all the young men and women in my classes as I have done for years to treat each other with respect, dignity, kindness and as equals. And we will continue to help young men get back in the game, as they are really falling behind in their educational pursuits, so we are helping recruit more young men into college from our local high school partners. It has been proven that education is the great equalizer, and so highly educated men and women can stamp out the violence against women, men and children that has been discussed in this forum and others.
    Thanks for your support of us ALL having and using the many talents that God has given us . Everything I have done and been given, all my talents, are from God and I cherish them daily.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Thanks, Liz and you’re most welcome. Thanks for commenting and sharing. Praise God for your talents and may He continue to bless you as you use them for His glory and for the benefit of others.

      Like

  19. aronhusband

    Liz, Marriage is for life, and being under authority is also for life. It really does not change once that union is forged. Both man and wife gave their informed consent to marriage, and authority and submission would be virtually meaningless if it could be withdrawn at any time. A man cannot withdraw his responsibility to lead, provide, protect, and love his wife. Nor does a wife withdraw her responsibility to submit. Once she made that choice, she stays with it. She consents every time she is disciplined because she consented to relationship from the start. Moreover, any wife who is committed to submission knows that rejecting discipline would be disobedience, and she does not want to do that anyway. Her submission is integral to her role and to her life, and she would never want to disobey her man. She may discuss the matter with him thoughtfully, if she believes it is no longer good for her, but the decision remains with her husband.

    It is interesting to hear people complain about marriages in which consent will not be withdrawn, but the same people fully accept that consent cannot be withdrawn by the citizen to receive punishment from the state. He cannot say, “sorry, I’m not going to prison, it sounds like it’s just too horrible.” You just have to take it anyway. If you don’t like it. too bad. I don’t hear anyone insisting that men should be able to withdraw their consent from paying child support. Hmm. Could it be that consent doesn’t matter in those instances? I wonder. Could it be that they just need to follow the authority of the state? Yep.

    Similarly, marriage comes with authority and submission as part and parcel of the union, and discipline is a normative part of having authority. Being able to be disciplined is a normative part of being under authority. Once you have made a decision to be married, you respect the commitment you made. You do your job. The woman, just as much as the man.

    Like

  20. aronhusband

    I want to add I know many success stories with discipline in marriage; many more successes than failures. It is clear with the successes, like any other, that they weathered through troubled periods, and overcame early obstacles to what was new to them. That’s why they are successes. The failures I know gave up when trouble came, or they had severe personal problems, even going back to their childhood, which brought poison to the marriage far and beyond what we speak of here. So if you have met failures, know they are only one example. Discipline works, and is very practical. It takes care of problems both faster and more efficiently than other methods. It can be misused. It should not be relied upon too much. But it works, and many women as well as men, want it for their marriages. If it does not work for you, then do not use it.

    Like

  21. Liz

    Hi, thanks for comment. Did I talk about consent and also failures in my prior posts? I am only asking because these last 2 messages seem to be directed at me. My last post was more a reflection, thanking the author for allowing our posts and also just in general what I do to help young men and women reach their full God-given potential.
    But, consent is near and dear to me, so I may have mentioned it in an earlier post. I was telling in an email the other day to this author that a certain website, A domestic discipline society
    https://adomesticdisciplinesociety.blogspot.com/ was a popular DD blog from 2012 to 2016 and there the author (claiming to be in a 30 year DD marriage) talks about consent extensively, that it can be paused or revoked by either party at any time. And that he recommends the use of safewords. His recommendations are in contrast to what you write in your recent post and on your website, and I believe I saw on your website you don’t support safe words, although, I think you said (please correct me) that if a wife starts to have a medical emergency, just saying that should get the husband to stop. I am not sure why ADDS is no longer kept up, as many other CDD websites are defunct, but could be for many reasons, including illness or death of one of the parties. But, I believe that many fewer people would rail against wife spanking if the wife can simply say “I love you, I remain a homemaker, and wife and mother and a submissive wife, but I can no longer accept the pain, fear and humiliation of punishments, please correct me verbally”. I know you will not agree with this, it is just my opinion.
    That said, say 2 people marry when they are 25, how will what they agreed to at 25 work when they are 35, 45, 55 , 65 and beyond? Things change alot as we mature, raise a family etc. I think I did write that if a wife no longer wants to be spanked, my hope is she can sit down and talk to her husband and at least tell him why, as I wrote above. And women in their 40s and beyond develop autoimmune disorders, for example. What if the spankings become too much for her to bear? You may have addressed this in one of your posts, I have not seen all of them, but recall a title of ending or pausing spanking.
    So to conclude, I can’t say that spanking does or does not work for me (referring to your last sentence on your most recent post here), because it has never been a thing I would have ever wanted or agreed to (and thank the good Lord, my husband has never wanted) so it has just not been in my life. But just like you know many marriages where DD has helped the couples, I know many long term marriages that have never used it and have fruitful, loving and productive marriages, and who are very God loving couples. I only mean my comments to be respectful and kind.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. aronhusband

      Hello Liz, I appreciate your reply. You did discuss consent in general, as well as cases of failures that you knew. I am aware that many people insist on safe words and continual consent, but as I stated in my above reply, that is silliness. You are not under authority of anyone if you can ignore a command when you feel like it, and then revoke consent to be disciplined. You are not able to be disciplined in actuality if you can reject discipline when you do not like it. That’s not authority and that’s not discipline.

      Many people attack wife spanking because a) it is not a game like nearly all bdsm and b) it reflects real, actual marriage, which is one man and one woman for life. I have several articles on that topic on my website. It’s not about a person’s preference or kink. It’s about legitimate authority that comes with being a husband, as well as necessary submission that comes with being a wife.

      That is not a game. It is intrinsic to the nature of marriage. When you get married you fulfill your responsibilities, including the wife fulfilling her responsibility to submit. Just as the man does not reject his job in loving, protecting, or providing for his wife, she does not reject her submission to him. You made a vow for life, and you continue in your responsibilities for life.

      It is hypocritical to complain about the fact that consent is one time and for life, and cannot be revoked, when you do not actually believe consent can be revoked in other domains of life. As I pointed out, the citizen is not permitted to revoke his consent to be punished when the law comes to arrest him. A man cannot revoke his consent to pay child support or alimony. You don’t expect the state to accept his rejection of their demands, and you support their use of force to assure that the law is followed.

      So you clearly understand the concept of being under authority, and that discipline comes with it. You understand that law officers are not playing some kind of kinky game when they carry around a pair of handcuffs. You and others just reject that idea with marriage. That proves the discussion at heart is not about spanking or discipline. It is about authority. You do not respect that the man has real authority. But you are wrong. The man has real authority, and those under authority do not just refuse to accept discipline. They accept it, and they knew they would accept it when they chose to place themselves under authority to begin with.

      Of course a husband and wife can continue to sit down and discuss how discipline is practiced. If a husband decides there is good reason to cease using spanking, then he will decide to cease using it. You are playing to some worst case scenarios, and all the what ifs, and ignoring the fact that we are dealing with two normal human beings in a marriage, who love each other. They are able to think and interact far beyond the imagined worst case scenarios. If spanking becomes dangerous with old age, nearly any man will use a different method when necessary. He is not some villain in a movie, but is a normal human being.

      Many more things, and more dangerous things, can go wrong with the state using discipline. When the state misuses discipline people suffer terribly, their lives are torn apart, and they may even die. But that doesn’t mean the state cannot punish anyone, nor does it mean the citizen can revoke consent to be punished. It just means they get things wrong sometimes to terrible results, and people need to be careful to make sure that does not happen.

      Other things in marriage that cause caustic and painful results: egalitarianism or soft forms of headship in marriage. Considering that these things make up most of modern marriages in the West, you need to see that if you distrust a practice in marriage, it should be these two practices — egalitarianism and the more sissified forms of leadership. Not only do they leave us with a massive divorce rate, but their failure is also seen in the fighting, unhappiness, lovelessness, disrespect, and violence in many marriages, along with the fact many men and women simply do not want marriage in the first place. Considering the proven dangers, I believe you should be warning people of these practices instead.

      When I said — if it does not work for you, don’t use if — I was not referring to you specifically. I was speaking of people in general. Nothing says it works all the time, and it is only a tool. However discipline, even through another form, is helpful in any marriage, and headship and submission are intrinsic to marriage. It is not a mere friendship.

      I appreciate your respectful tone in your comments. I am glad you have a happy marriage.

      Like

  22. Pingback: Domestic Discipline in Sex: Exploring Rules & Punishments - SWL

      1. aronhusband

        It’s your website. That’s fine. But after thousands of words of objections and my replies, no one has been able to show it is against the word of God, or wrong ethically. You should really reconsider the assertion you make above, since no one is able to defend it.

        Like

      2. aronhusband

        Not true. Neither you nor anyone else has shown it is not biblical. Not even close. Go read all the above comments again. You have zero scriptural support. You are pretending your own opinion is the word of God. You should either cite the scriptures which do not permit wife spanking, or cease making the claims you make. It’s not Christian to judge a brother based on your personal tastes. False judgment is against the Bible.

        Like

      3. Say what you may but you don’t have any scriptural evidence which condones wife spanking. And, sticking to God’s truth is not judging anyone based on my personal tastes. I’m not judging against the Bible. I’m defending it against your false statements which would have people believe that spanking your wife is biblical. It is not.

        Like

      4. aronhusband

        No. I have replied to such objections multiple times already, in great detail. You have no scripture which instructs you to give children a timeout, or to even give them a bedtime. None. But you do so anyway because . . . God gave you the authority to do so. Clearly, you are not going against the Bible when you give a timeout or when you give a bedtime. You are simple being a parent, and using your God-given position justly.

        Similarly, I do not need a specific passage mandating wife spanking in order to spank my wife. I have multiple clear passages giving me authority, as well as multiple clear passages which endorse and even mandate corporal punishment. That means I am within my rights to discipline my wife, either in that fashion or another. If you deny that, then you also deny your right to give a timeout or set a bedtime for your children. Same logic both ways. Since you accept that you may set rules and use discipline not specifically mandated in Scripture, then you need to accept that others may do the same.

        That means that YOU have to show from the Bible that wife spanking is wrong, and not just demand that I show a mandate to do it. If you are going to make the bold claim it is wrong, and you are going to judge another Christian because you believe it is wrong, you need something from Scripture showing that it’s wrong. Yet in literally thousands and thousands of words, not one of you have shown a Bible passage which condemns wife spanking, or even logically demands that it is wrong. You should either cite the scriptures, or stop making the claim. Taking your personal opinion about spanking in marriage, and making it a doctrine is a sin. That is something the Bible actually prohibits, unlike wife spanking. There is chapter and verse on that. If you respect what the Bible teaches, you will immediately cease from judging your brother based on his use of discipline.

        Like

      5. Only God has the right to judge anybody and He knows that I respect what He teaches in His Word.

        The practice of wife spanking is your personal opinion, not Biblical teaching. If you and your wife agree to incorporate wife spanking in your marriage, that’s your business but please do not use the Bible to justify it. Ephesians 5:28–29 clearly states: “In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body.” And 1 Peter 3:7, (ESV) says: “Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.” The Bible encourages husbands to be understanding to their wives. Does this sound like spanking them would be an act of understanding? Men are called to love their wives as Christ loves the church which is His body.

        Spanking is for children as a form of discipline because there are times when talking to them doesn’t work (Proverbs 13:24; 23:13-14). Women are not children. They are adults and can be reasoned with. If necessary, couples can seek help through godly counseling. Spanking your wife should never be an option if you’re unhappy with her.

        Like

      6. aronhusband

        If “only God has a right to judge someone” as you say, then you should stop judging your brethren who spank their wives. You don’t have a biblical basis to do so. You make your personal opinion the words of God if you do so.

        The only thing consistent to God’s word is to respect wife spanking as one way a husband may correct his wife, even if you do not personally agree with it. Wife spanking is well within the authority which the man has, just as discipline is within the use of other authorities. I find wife spanking to be the best form of discipline, and I do not need a mandate from God in order to believe that or practice that, just as you do not need a mandate from God to apply God’s word in unique ways in your life, as you do many times.

        The fact that the Bible teaches to “love” the wife does not contradict the use of discipline, whether corporal or otherwise. Love and discipline go hand. In fact, the Church is Christ’s body, and Christ surely loves the Church more than we can imagine. Yet Christ promises to SCOURGE His bride when she needs a scourging. 

        So your logic is not the logic which the Bible uses, and it is a gross misuse of the text. We’ve been over that before. Neither Ephesians nor any other book of the Bible teaches that you many not spank or otherwise discipline your wife. You have no such Scripture.

        Love and discipline go together. You have no problem seeing that in other domains of life, so you have to change your logic here with marriage. This inconsistency reveals you are not honestly looking for truth.

        Having “understanding” for a wife, and honoring her as the “weaker vessel” do not prohibit discipline in marriage either. That is because understanding is not in conflict with discipline, but rather can help us know when and how to use discipline. The wife being the weaker vessel does not mean she cannot be spanked. That is nowhere in the text, which is why you have to invent it. In fact, the Bible teaches to spank children, who are significantly weaker than adult women. That means once again you inject your own personal logic into Scripture, where it does not exist.

        Since you obviously cannot find the Scripture which teaches wife spanking is wrong, you should stop claiming it is wrong.

        While you did not permit my new link, I would still advise you to go to my articles which answer the common objections to the practice, the same ones you continually repeat, even though I have shown how they are empty objections. These articles are Spanking is Bad, M’Kay, and Jesus Says Spanking is Bad, M’Kay.

        If spanking were essentially wrong, whether for wives or anyone else, God would not have mandated and endorsed spanking multiple times in Scripture. He does so for children, servants, and citizens. 

        He does not teach us to do wicked things. You are wrong.

        Like

  23. Veronica

    Hello to all and Joanna (your latest message did not have a reply button), in addition to all your good statistics of women in the workforce, now 1 in 5 stay at home parent is the dad! I also know many couples in public service jobs (firefighters, police officers and nurses) who work opposite shifts so the children have one of their parents home at all times.

    One thing that really strikes me about this lifestyle is that the man is never, ever wrong. I tried to post this recently on the spanking your wife site and my comment was rejected. In fact he rejects most reasonable and respectful comments, and yet lets men describe heinous treatment of their wives. On the latest post a women described having to be “broken” by her husband (more severe beatings) so she could cry. Women get punished for minor things (one wife wrote she was spanked because she had an expired bag of salad in the fridge- um, what???), but men can commit adultery, gamble the family money away, be addicted to porn, etc etc and all the wife can do is talk to him gently about the problem. She can only leave if her life is in danger. And they call themselves”Lord” and “King” of their households. I thought those words were reserved for the Almighty. My friend who is a divorce lawyer said while women file more for divorce, it is because of adultery of the husband. The husband won’t file because he wants to be forgiven and move on, but the wife won’t live with an adulterer. So that statistic that more women file for divorce then men is not at all the whole story. When did human men become infallible?

    Please read this Center for Biblical Equality article on the case for biblical equality between men and women. The author is a man who has studied the Bible for over 4 decades. The article is long but worth reading. It really showed me the Greek translations about biblical equality.

    https://www.cbeinternational.org/resource/bible-teaches-equal-standing-man-and-woman/

    Also look at Patrick Weaver ministries. He recently wrote (I paraphrase) that there is a huge difference between a man who wants a wife and a man who wants to be a husband. The former wants someone who can take care of him above all else, the latter wants to love her as Christ loved the Church. That was so simple yet so profound.

    Finally search Pastor Scott LaPierre’s article what Biblical submission is not. 

    The best we can do for the young men and women in our lives is to mirror for them what healthy relationships look like.

    To close on the International Day of the Women: “Here is to strong women. May we know them. May we be them. May we raise them.”

    Also thank you to the author for the several others posts on this site warning of the perils of DD. While many are fiction articles they really get the message across clearly.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. aronhusband

      Your reply is rooted in a common fallacy: if you can find any misuse of a thing, then the thing itself is wrong. You are trying to apply that logic to discipline in marriage, but it could also be wrongly applied to anything else. Some men may not do their jobs well, and some may misuse authority, but that does not logically mean they have no authority. If we applied that logic to governments, we’d have to claim that governments have no right to make laws and give punishments, considering how they sometimes do wrong. Yet we all know that we need to obey the law, and that government authority is from God.

      The husband’s authority is equally from God. It is in its basic elements the same as any other authority. The man can set the rules, and can give the commands, and those under authority obey him. The man’s headship and the wife’s submission are taught as plainly as anything else in Scripture, and using the same words for authority and submission we easily understand when they are used about other authorities. So the husband’s biblical headship is not meaningfully different from those of the state, of parents, or of masters. In fact, it is compared to the headship of Christ and of God.

      It is false and misleading to claim that the husband is never held accountable. I teach explicitly on my website that the man is to obey God, and he is to rule for the good of his wife, children, and home. He is a vessel in the hands of God, and he needs to submit himself to the Lord. On a practical level, there are also others who can correct him if he is involved in wrongs which are very serious. His brothers in Christ can correct him. The pastor can correct him. If he breaks any serious laws, the state can legally punish him. So no one I’ve ever heard of claims that the man is not under authority himself, or that he cannot be corrected. Of course he can.

      Moreover, people who complain about misuses of authority in marriage, as I point out repeatedly, ignore the destruction and violence which comes from a lack of authority in marriage. The number of marriages which include truly dangerous violence, if not murder, which came about with a LACK of headship, are too many to count. The men and women who verbally insult, and violently attack one another repeatedly are often in marriages of egalitarianism, of soft headship, or in extra-marital relationships in which no real authority exists. The bloody violence of divorce, which harms children for many years to come, also occurs frequently in the absence of meaningful headship.

      That is one of the greatest blessings of real authority in marriage: it is much more likely to bring peace, harmony, and love, than a headless home is. It puts an end to conflict, and leaves little room for violence. It allows love and the fulfillment of marital responsibilities to be fulfilled much more easily. For that reason, and its God-ordained nature, it is to be embraced, and not to be feared.

      I allow many critical comments on my website. However, I keep it to a minority, because it is a place for people who are interested in learning, or who practice discipline in marriage to share ideas and interact. It is not a place for the many people who hate wife spanking to have a forum, though I allow their comments here and there, and reply to them.

      I do not consider your analysis above either realistic or fair minded. I’d also encourage you to learn from what I write, and practice discernment with some of the comments, some of which are made up, and others of which are from the bdsm crowd. This is common sense with any website.

      Like

    1. Hi Jenny,

      Thanks 🙂 I’m happy to be back.

      I’m thrilled to hear that you love my blog. Yes, I was shocked when I couldn’t write new posts. That’s when I realized that my blog was suspended. I contacted WordPress and they said that it was flagged by their automated anti-spam controls. They reviewed my site and removed the suspension notice.

      Thanks for dropping by.

      Cheers!

      Like

  24. Jenny

    Thank you! I love your wonderful articles that represent women in their best light! God gave us all, men and women, so many talents, we would dishonor Him not to use them.

    Regarding the wife spanking topic on this thread, I did not know much about it. I think people have to be VERY careful what they claim is and isn’t biblical. As an aside, I watched a debate recently between 4 men, 2 for and 2 against polygamy. They presented arguments that God allowed men to have more than one wife in the old testament and that law was never retracted. That the NT versions of one man, one woman, one flesh does not negate the OT law. While I hope most of us here don’t believe and practice polygamy, the “for polygamy” men were very detailed in their scriptural references. Many thought they “won” the debate. So with all these topics we must really understand what scripture is saying.

    I was (as was my husband) somewhat flabbergasted with what I read in spanking sites. But I read many of the articles and tried to understand. I could not live the way described, and luckily I don’t have to, I have a wonderful long marriage with my husband, who I committed my entire life to.

    But when I read some of the descriptions of punishments, I saw that many times during the spankings, the husband says something like “do you see you deseved this punishment?”, to which the wife says “Yes, sir”. I mean, what else could she say? I am generally interested in that question. If, after he continues to strike and strike her , she would answer “No, sir, I still do not feel I deserved this punishment”, what would the husband do at that point? Would he continue to beat his wife until she finally agreed she deserved it? Or would he stop and try to understand it? I mean at that point, doesn’t she just want the punishment to end? And, of course, these homes are more peaceful. I would be walking on eggshells and scared to death that my husband could decide to bare me and punish me at the drop of the hat for anything I did or said. So it seems just like a learned response rather than a true submissive heart. I don’t know. It seems like a scary and sad way to live to me, but I hope and pray these women have some moments in their lives where they experience joy, and that they can really talk to their husbands and end this practice if they feel they no longer can be punished in this way.

    Anyway thanks again for this wonderful site that helps women see all the ways that God has truly blessed us!

    Liked by 1 person

    1. You have raised some very good points, Jenny. The wife could be saying what she is just so the spanking could end.

      I’m happy that you like my blog and feel that it helps women to see all the ways that God has truly blessed us.

      Do you have a blog I can follow?

      Like

Leave a comment

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.